Saturday, 1 February 2014

Ismaili Tavern Update

Many blog readers will remember back in October when a local Ismaili community opened up the old Worcester Park Tavern to consult the community on turning it into an Ismaili community centre. Many people have since contacted me to ask what is happening but up until now there has been little to report.

However there has now been another small development. The Ismailis have issued an update on the situation addressing many of the issues that have been raised. Copies of this update (as shown below) are being posted through letter boxes close to the site.
I have also spoken to John Clare who has started a local petition against the proposal. Currently the only way you can sign this is for him to know on your door however I understand he has gathered a fair number of signatures. I will keep you updated as things unfold further...


112 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Resident said...

I wish they would just cut this charm offensive and simply submit the planning application that they have been sitting on for months, but are holding back for undisclosed reasons. The fact they are seen to be stalling can only work against them.

The sooner they engage in the planning process, the better. Then everyone in or with an interest in the local community can discuss, evaluate and make their own, individual judgements. Any applicant being seen to (publicly) delay their own engagement in an unavoidable legal process is going do that applicant no favours. GET ON WITH IT!

Guest said...

Submit the planning application, and then see where your charm offensive takes you,we sincerely trust that you have anticipated the mood of the residents of Worcester Park.You have invited a response ,we are ready.

steve said...

I agree it is all a smooth or machine and 50 responses across all of WP. Sorry not buying it ther traffic and parking issues are too great to overcome.

Worcester Park Blogger said...

I should point out that they did send this to me and ask for me to post it so I don't think they are deliberately trying to keep it low key.

Guest said...

Mohamed rersee how unfortunate iimportant information has gone missing, the words deceit and suspicion come to mind.
So much for the coffee/tea and biscuits at the consultation

Guest said...

Mohamed rersee. We have read your updated proposals to develop the Worcester park public house, we the residents of W Park object to anything you have to say , we are not going to be hoodwinked by this latest statement, most residents who attended the consultations quickly saw through your sickly charade , that is why you conveniently
LOST the negative forms that were kindly filled out and returned to you by our kindly residents. If you believe the residents are going to allow the Tavern to be changed into whatever you want to call it ( MOSQUE ) then you are in for a rude awakening.
You obviously see WORCESTER PARK as a easy touch and that you can enforce YOUR wishes against THE RESIDENTS OF WORCESTER PARK. MISTAKE. BIG. BIG. MISTAKE


Adele Carter said...

That's all well and good if you are on Facebook my 80 year parents are not so rely on me and family for updates or general conversation through friends, they need to up their game if they are genuine and going to take on board residents thoughts!

Guest said...

Friends,of W.P. Born and bred, We are monitoring the situation in Worcester park very closely.

john said...

how ironic. the blogger is concerned about the empty shops, buildings in wp. this peaceful community intends to utilise this current unsightly building and there is uproar. i for one am behind this development .

John Clare said...

The petition progresses. Having spoken to Nick Davey of Jts Partnership in Brentwood on Monday 20th January this newsletter is not unexpected, I did however expect to receive a copy. No approach has yet been made to the Royal Borough of Kingston regarding planning or change of use, by the Consultant's mentioned above although Nick Davey did state it will be at least 2months.

John Clare said...

The premises have been placed into a SPV (special purpose vehicle) for JTS Partnership Brentwood to obtain planning permission for the Community Centre

terry said...

Once again this "community" continue to lie.I went to the meeting and said i was against the proposal and surprise surprise was never offered a comment form! As regards the majority of the people who turned up that weekend were all for their ideas, rubbish the majority were against it.I agree with some of the other comments, stop playing games bring on the planning application and watch the petitions grow and grow. The people of WP want something for the people of WP.

Guest said...

John, ? If that is your true name. How ironic you use the description peaceful community. Really why the need for security guards patrolling on the public pavements outside the Worcester during the consultation,why the need to abuse a resident walking with his children on the grass outside the Worcester who simply asked one of these peaceful gentlemen a question and lastly Mohamed,sorry John I don't need to look at huge steel security gates when I pass the mosque , Sorry.my mistake again

Guest said...

John. So glad that you are behind the development maybe you can act as security behind the intended steel gates

Guest said...

The Ismaili intended development at the Worcester pub, why must you be so deceitful, Negative forms against the proposal suspiiciously vanishing, You have no concept of the word trust, it is no wonder the people of Worcester park are so against what you are trying to instigate against their wishes.

Stewart Mackay Conservative WP said...

Blogger can we find out if this is actually Mohammed Rersee or an impersonator.

John Clare said...

I have now received the JTS Partnership (Interim Update) direct by post.
Should you wish to be on there mailing list regarding The Ismaili Community Centre
apply to Harriette Wood at (consultation@jtspartnership.co.uk). Ref ND/hw/mm/7691

Stewart Mackay Conservative WP said...

I have seen the name and IP address of the person that posted this and it is not Mohammed. Unless Mohammed Rersee actually has a christian name. People, I think we have to remember that the BNP are standing in WP or other far right fanatics may try to high-Jack these debates and pull our strings. Lets not be manipulated by these people. A wise friend once said: ... Hmm. In the end, cowards are those who follow the dark side. :) Okay so it was Yoda ... but appropriate.

Stewart Mackay Conservative WP said...

Dear all, I am posting this at the top. the comment posted two days by supposedly Mohamed Rersee. was in fact not. I have seen the email and IP address used to make the post and unless Mohammed has an Anglo Christian name. It wasn't him. We have to bare in mind the National Front are standing in WP and this could be one of them or just a lone trouble maker. Lets not trouble makers or the far right manipulate us.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Having read various responses since our hierarchy arranged to meet with residents of Worcester Park and presumably surrounding areas last October, kindly rest assured that apart from questioning them as to their overall conduct and behaviour, we will make absolutely sure that the genuine residents are unreservedly in support of the redevelopment, as and when JTS Partnership as the Agents of the owners (allegedly an Ismaili Community Benefactor), submit the planning application to The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames.
In the meantime, please visit www.theismaili.org/ismailicentre/london

John said...

Would there be such uproar if a new church was to be built on the site??!

Consultation Attendee said...

Churches welcome all, by their own admission at the Consultation you could not just walk in to their Meetings you would have to write to them and wait to be invited.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

With utmost respect, it is only DURING community congregations that anyone, including other Muslims, Sunnis and Shiites alike with a common religious name and EVEN structure but NOT doctrine - our set of beliefs, are excluded. This exclusion ALSO applies to Non Ismaili Muslim spouses and children, who are more than welcomed at social communal gatherings.

Consultation Attendee said...

We did not discuss the community congregation aspect but in fact the social communal gatherings and were told that it was by invitation only and that we could not just walk in, maybe one of your doctrine had diverted from the script.

longfellow 12 said...

So Mr Dharamsey can i we confirm this quote from you, "we will make absolutely sure that genuine residents of WP are unreservedly in support of the redevelopment of the Tavern when you submit the planning application". Firstly i presume you mean by "genuine residents" people that live in WP, in particular the KT4 area as these are the people that would be affected not people from outside the area as surely they could not have any say on the impact of the development! As regards questioning the overall conduct and behaviour of the people at the meeting did you include the hired security man that swore at someone with their young children when encroaching too near the fence of your property last year.Also if the people of people of WP do not like your new proposal will you hold another meeting to discuss this further.In the meantime we have a focal point of WP slowly deteriorating while we wait for to decide.Then again it is only the "genuine" residents of WP that see this every day.We await your response.

john said...

So far petition is over 3000 and counting.Put this next to your 50 comment forms for the development does not look good.Just stop the pr not fooling us and put the application in.

John Clare said...

You are not in a position to assume at what total the petition has reached, I am. The total will be declared as and when necessary

Alex said...

There would if the intention was to attract people attending a church, (or for that matter, a bingo hall, cinema or any other similarly large group), travelling by car, from across London and Surrey, between the River Thames and Guildford. Or did you assume everyone attending will be local and walking there?

Guest said...

John, please contact the residents of Mordon for their feelings regarding a similar building of worship. Utter chaos and despare. Turn left at North Cheam lights then straight ahead to Mordon. Just in case your not familiar with the area.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Please be informed that I do NOT represent our hierarchy but am responding, as the Honorary Chair of the Global Ismaili Muslim (GIM) eForum with over 49,000 Worldwide Ismaili Email Registrants.
Hence, we have already notified our voluntary representatives that we shall hold them to account, if it is felt that they have made, and are continuing to make false representations - contrary to the ethics of our esoteric faith!
We have adequate financial resources if required, to take the main culprits to court, for allegedly bringing our relatively liberal and pacifist Muslim Community into disrepute, odium and ridicule!
May I also mention that the only regular 'meetings' that are convened are for various community portfolios of Religious Affairs, Secular Matters, Education, Economic Planning, Social & Welfare, Health and Youth & Sports. These are held regularly at the Ismaili Centre at South Kensington!
For the record, I do not sit on any of the aforementioned Committees, and as such was not invited to attend the two day consultation.
To the best of my knowledge and belief, around 240-260 Community Members reside on the other side of Putney Bridge. They would be the only ones who would prefer to attend the congregation south of the river.
Like other interested parties, the GIM eForum has written to JTS Partnership and requested to be included on their Mailing List.

bazza said...

So you mention that about 240 members reside the other side of Putney Bridge and they would be the only ones likely to use this building.The other side of Putney Bridge happens to be Fulham, surely the Centre at South Kensington is nearer to them? Also a similar proposal by the Ismaili Community Centre was turned down in Tolworth recently. On that application it was claimed up to 600 people would visit every friday. Where have these members gone? You cannot just keep changing the statistics till they fit, the more you do this the more people will doubt you.

Jason said...

Here here. I thought that they said that most poeple would use public transport no cars. What is easier Putney Bridge to South Kensington by tube.Or Putney Bridge to Worcester Park? Dear dear this is becoming quite a joke.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Although most of you are 'scared' to reveal your names, I shall attempt to respond to as many enquiries as practicable. To the best of my knowledge, most Ismaili Muslims residing in Fulham prefer to and already attend the Ismaili Centre at South Kensington, unless you prove to me otherwise!
Under The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, we were informed that the largest number of people 'allowed' in the School Hall including the corridor and an ancillary room at East Sheen Primary School, where our fellow brethren congregated on 4 weekday evenings between 6.30 - 9.30 pm for many years (until major refurbishment from Mid October 2013) was 380!
As you are no doubt aware, I am not part of the hierarchy and cannot comment on the 'maximum' numbers mentioned in any previous application elsewhere.
However, regarding Worcester Park, the attendees would be coming not only from around Putney but other boroughs within South West London!

As mentioned previously, if it is found that our hierarchy had made false representations or even 'lied,' the eForum will not hesitate to object against any planning application being made in the future!

Alex said...

Abdulla, can you tell us what exactly is the reason for the hold up on the submission of the (inevitable) planning application? [I asked at the consultation when it would happen, but could not get a straight answer from anyone].

If I were attempting to submit a planning application (especially an unpopular/controversial one), I think I would at least try to minimise the reasons for opposition, by ensuring it was timely and transparent. Continuing to dangle the threat of a guarded application in front of residents isn't going to help either community: local or Ismaili.

Susan Brown said...

I live in The Avenue and the letters only reach as far as No 17! I did mention this at the consultation and was told it would be looked into

Justin said...

Abdullah Jan Dharamsey,with upmost respect,your recent comment implies that the residents of Worcester Park are scared,may regret the use of that word.

Alex said...

I can only assume that the person who 'voted down' the Blogger's comment above would (by implication) have much rather preferred NOT to have seen this news item published. And therefore, presumably, they would have wished to keep this information from the WP community? Weird!

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

The astute Webmaster has gathered that you are writing as Alex as well as Bazza. You can call yourself Tom Jones or Elton John if you like but to have a civilised discussion, stick to one identity!
Read my various submissions slowly and you will gather that I have no connection with the Owner(s) or their Agents! The comment from John Clare carries contact details of JTS Partnership.

Alex said...

Abdulla, I did not write, nor know the identity of 'Bazza'. Presumably 'the astute Webmaster' would be able to confirm that the IP addresses are unrelated? Although, I suspect you may well simply claim that they were still the same person using two different PCs and/or internet providers?

I certainly read this submission slowly: "However, regarding Worcester Park, the attendees would be coming not only from around Putney but other boroughs within South West London!" Presumably, since the nearest Surrey based alternative is in Guildford, a Worcester Park based centre would logically attract people from North Surrey too?

Alex said...

John, I suspect only three kinds of people would write "i for one am behind this development", without even seeing the planning application for the development they have declared their support for:
1. Those with appalling judgement.
2. Those with a benefit or interest in the development.
3. Those living so far away from the development that they don't have to worry!
Which one (or more) applies to you?

bazza said...

Firstly Mr Dharamsey me and Alex are not the same person(do apologise Alex!) so i think its best you have a chat with with your webmaster! Secondly you claim that the people of WP are scared of leaving their names on the blog.Why is there something we should be scared of? Would you like to elaborate on that statement. Why do you need more information on the people that use this blog anyway? I do not think threatening the people of WP will go down well on your application. It also seems that your figures seem to be "jumping around" regarding attendences for the proposed centre. When i went to the consultation i was told no more than 50 people would attend and some fridays there would be a maximum of 150. On saturday we were informed it would used for an youth centre.Total no of people? 15 (yes 15!).We pointed out that it seemed that the numbers showed that the building would be largely empty and potentially underused.We were also informed that no more than 150 people used the Sheen branch.You see this why there is much debate.The mere fact that these figures are constantly changing raises much concern in itself. Also if you cannot confirm any details how can you submit this as an application.

Conflicting Numbers said...

Bazza, what you are saying is exactly the same as we were told at the Consultation. Not the greatest start to “winning” us over now that so many conflicting statements are being made by the pro Islamic Centre people. I would also like to add that a gentleman who lives near the Centre in Kensington was also present and went to great lengths to get the “Delegates” to actually tell the truth which included the impact the Centre has had on his neighbourhood in Kensington. Suffice to say we were hurried away from him.

Alex said...

Bazza, It looks as though Mr Dharamsey's "astute webmaster" is not as astute, after all!

bazza said...

Here here, i am still waiting for Elton John and Tom Jones to post their comments!.Meanwhile Mr Dharamsey has gone very quiet..........

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

The webmaster reference is to Simon Densley who is the 'owner' of the Worcester Park Blog domain! Apologies to Alex and Bazza for the error from me for not double checking! The passing reference to 'scared' was because the 'affected' local community members should be forthright and identify themselves. I made my status clear at the outset, so that everyone knew my position.
Having reviewed the original comments made in Oct/Nov 2013, I cannot find in myself to apologise for the untrue statements or comments made by some of our representatives who were 'invited' to assist at the consultation, save to refer to them as damn liars worthy of the devil! And that includes Ms Verjee, the Member for 'Communications' who mis-communicated and misinformed the gathering that WE do not pray 5 times a day! Her belated devout father must be turning in his grave!
For the record, we do not observe the traditional ritual to making a loudspeaker announcement (Azaan/Adhan), and thereupon call the faithful to prayer time.

Verity said...

Mr Dharamsey, you have now accused members of your community as being damn liars worthy of the devil, i am not sure the peacefiul residents are ready for that kind of talk. You previously quoted that the planning application would be withdrawn if lying had occurred during the consultation, well the answers given to most questions asked by the residents were certainly not truthful but then you have already admitted this. I was lied to regarding the usage of the building for anyone, not so , and this information from an elderly gentleman certainly not Ms Vergee who unfortunately has been singled out as a scapegoat for the consultation debacle. When can the residents expect a press release that the intended planning application has been withdrawn

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

When our voluntary leaders are appointed, they are entrusted with 'Trust & Confidence' by The Aga Khan - our Spiritual and Temporal Leader since 1957, to carry out their Duties and Responsibilities within the Ethics of our Faith. As such, we are stuck with the incumbent, unless they resign, die or are replaced in Summer 2015 if at all.
The shambolic and muddled way in which the consultation was organised and conducted by the UK Ismaili hierarchy, is bound to adversely affect our standing as a liberal, progressive and pacifist Shi'a Muslim Community in GB, hence the unreserved and justified tirade.
Thankfully Canada with around 100,000 Ismaili Muslims has been receptive with its pluralistic (a condition in which numerous distinct ethnic, religious, or cultural groups are present and tolerated within a society) ideals. Late last week, the Federal Government even invited The Aga Khan to pay an 'official' visit and address the Parliament later this month - first time a Spiritual Leader of a Global Muslim Community has been afforded this unique accolade in a western country!
You may have misread or misinterpreted my comment regarding 'withdrawal' of planning application, which the Local Council have confirmed to me has not been received to date from the owners or their agents - Thursday 6 February!
Like other interested and concerned parties, the eForum will decide whether to oppose or not bother, if and when any planning application is made by JTS Partnership on behalf of their Ismaili Benefactor Client Owner to The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames.
As regards Ms Verjee, she is the Official Member for Communications & Publications for The Ismaili Council for the UK and Western Europe Jurisdiction Communities (totalling just over 13,000) and responsible to 'communicate' with us AND public at large. The 'buck' stops with her!
Finally, may I express my deep gratitude to John Clare (from Worcester Park Environs) for his fairly concise and precise summary - it gives a good insight of events from the time our hierarchy initiated the consultation process and approached the Local Church Authorities. My only regret is I had no idea of this consultation until after the event!

John Clare said...

Abdullah, if as you say, that you pray more than once a day (as previously stated at the presentation on October) then how many times a day do prayers take place and at what times.
It is ever more becoming apparent that perhaps your SW LONDON
Ismaili Community is BEING ECONOMICAL WITH THE TRUTH

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

John, According to my understanding and belief of our esoteric as opposed to exoteric faith, we also offer prayers 5 times within the 24 hour day! However, not all of them are in congregation and/or within a 'Prayer Hall.'
Of these, two are offered during the day and may include (optional) time for contemplation AND three are offered during the one hour Ceremonial Congregation after dusk.
If one does not or cant attend congregational prayers for whatever reasons on any evening, that person can pray alone or with others wherever it is practicable!
Also as HRH Prince of Wales found out when he paid a courtesy call to HH The Aga Khan at Ismaili Centre in South Kensington in November 2010 to commemorate its 25th Anniversary, since being officially inaugurated by Mrs Margaret Thatcher in 1985 - the then UK Prime Minister, we do NOT carry out the ritual 'Wudu' - partial ablution, which is the traditional Islamic procedure for washing parts of the body using water, in preparation for formal prayers (Salat or Service).
Within our spiritual rites and practice, it is one's heart and mind that need to be pure as you enter the 'Prayer Hall' (not a mosque) rather than your external body, as long as it is hygienically clean and one is 'appropriately' dressed!

Whether you have been invited previously to the First religious, social and cultural space that is the Ismaili Centre at South Kensington, may I take this opportunity to welcome you and others for a guided tour of that building at a mutually convenient time. Kindly email me: globalismaili@gmail.com, so that I may respectfully seek expressed permission from the Ismaili Centre Secretariat!

bazza said...

Once again Mr Dharamsey you stray from the point of this debate. This is not about your Organization or in fact about the SW Ismaili Community. It is about WORCESTER PARK! You constantly remind us of many details of your organization which bear no impact as regards the real issues.If you need reminding these are; Job prospects for local people zero.Amenities for local people zero.A huge impact on traffic congestion and parking in the surrounding areas with no solution. You see it could be any organization,community group etc. If it would offer the same then the response would be the same.

Verity said...

Abdullah Jan Dharamsey, your latest comment at 13.00hours. February 9. 2014 describes your disappointment at the shambolic and muddled way in which the consultation was organised and conducted by the U.K. ISMAILI HIERARCHY. You are obviously a honourable gentleman. Again we must remind you , as HONORARY. CHAIR OF THE GLOBAL ISMAILI MUSLIM eFORUM to confirm the previous agreement that you yourself made. ANY FALSE REPRESENTATIONS OR EVEN LIES THE eFORUM WILL NOT HESITATE TO OBJECT AGAINST ANY. PLANNING APPLICATION BEING MADE IN THE FUTURE. This was the exact statement you made on February 6. 2014. Again. when can we expect a press release that the intended planning application has been withdrawn.

guest D said...

Verity, Mr Dharamsey can only make an objection once the application is made. I think you are confusing his role on the eForum and those at JTS who are manging the application process.

As I understand it, he has no role in this application and has only tried to clear up confusion, but has perhaps created more confusion as a result.

Perhaps it would be best to wait until the application is made and then we can all disect that?

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Guest D - Thank you for clarifying my position to Verity. Surprisingly, 8 people have already emailed to want to take a tour of the Ismaili Centre!

Verity said...

Guest D, I cannot believe Mr Dharamsey has not been in contact with JTS who are managing the application process, his view of the shambolic manner in which the P.R process has been managed by the Ismaili organisers. And what must be the greatest concern to Mr Dharamsey, the total strength of the opposition from the residents of Worcester Park. These are the main reasons why this audacious development proposal should be curtailed now and not wait until the application is made. Sense must prevail.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Verity

Having served as a Voluntary Administration Officer with Metropolitan Police Special Constabulary, I was involved in preparing evidence for consideration by Crown Prosecution Service for many years, and we were always reminded to keep copies.

Set out below is the copy email - my proof!
But for John Clare, I would not even have found out the Agent's details! So, stop being sarcastic, and let us all wait and see if any planning application is lodged with the Council.





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: GIM eForum
Date: 3 February 2014 16:12
Subject: Proposed Ismaili Community Centre in Worcester Park
To: Ms Harriett Wood
Cc: Nick Davey

Ms Harriet Wood
JTS Partnership LLP
Number One
The Drive
Great Warley
Brentwood
Essex CM13 3DJ

Your ref: Ref ND/hw/mm/7691

Dear Ms Wood

Kindly send me a copy of the Interim Update in respect of the above Centre, either by email or via post at the earliest.



Yours sincerely

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey
Hon Chair: Global Ismaili Muslim (GIM) eForum

Postal Address Removed

John Clare said...

Abdullah, Thankyou for your insight into your religious customs, it does however prompt another question. The three prayers offered after dark, does dusk set the time for the commencement of prayer??
My apologies, I at present, must decline your invitation to the Ismaili Centre in South Kensington, however, after the Planning Application process has achieved a solution, be it yes or no
(hopefully no) if I could avail myself with your offer

Verity said...

Abdullah Jan Dharamsey. with utmost respect, keep it friendly, just consider the feelings of the residents of Worcester Park. Thank you.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

John

No, because for practicable reasons and overall convenience, the three after 'dusk' prayers in the UK / Europe are offered from 6.30 onwards at weekends and 7.00 / 7.30 pm on weekdays.
For the record, the Ismaili Centre is part of the Open House London - the capital’s largest annual festival of architecture and design, a city-wide celebration of the buildings, places and neighbourhoods where we live and work.
This year, the 'free and open' festival that provides access to 250,000 people across 30 boroughs, to more than 800 outstanding examples of historic and contemporary buildings, on-site projects and public spaces will be held on 20 and 21 September. http://www.londonopenhouse.org/

me said...

Perhaps getting the petition into the local shops (like on previous occasion) and informing people on the forum about it would be a better option for those who would like to object to it. One guy walking with the petition will never reflect volume of people who are against it.

Guest said...

But if just one guy going door to door can demonstrate a volume of people who are against it, that will certainly be something!

guest said...

Is it still possible to sign the petition now? I know of a few roads near the Tavern that have not been visited yet. I have signed the petition John Davey (old malden councillor) has been circulating. It seems most people are awaiting the application then they will want sign up then. Everyone must remember though it is just as important to write or email RBK planning department also.

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Cuddington volunteers said...

Update on petition , It was agreed after discussion with a Cuddington ward councillor that we would wait until such time the planning application was submitted to RBK planning office and we would then have a clearer picture regarding the intentions of the Ismaili members with the Worcester Park Tavern. Once this has been established we will set wheels in motion regarding the petition. Every home in the Cuddington ward will be contacted, similar to the wonderful efforts of John Clare and his helpers in the Old Maldon ward of Worcester Park ( thank you John ). Please tell your friends and neighbours to stay patient , explain we await developments,
Again, once we have the required information with the application we will then start canvassing our fellow residents with the petition.

guest said...

Thanks for the update, i will pass this on as many of my neighbours were asking the same question. Just wondering how many years they are allowed to leave this building in such a terrible state.Also has anyone else apart from me seen lights on at night.Mainly the upper floors,seems like some people are living there.Is this allowed? I have contacted the council,surprise surprise no response!

guest said...

Thanks for the update,i will pass this on to many of my neighbours who were asking the same question. Just wondered how many years they are allowed to leave this building in such a terrible state. Also has anyone apart from me see lights on late at night, in particular the upper floors? Looks like people are living there. I have contacted the council and surprise surprise no response!

Cuddington volunteers said...

Update, regarding Cuddington ward petition, apology, should have been Old Malden not Old Maldon, my mistake.

John Clare said...

The team are acting upon advice received from the local councillor in Old Malden Ward (RBK). The entire Community of Worcester Park is awaiting the Planning Application, meanwhile, information regarding traffic counts, previous applications
(Hook) is being sought from the various departments within RBK.
This effort, very similar to Cuddington, is at the moment, quite low key. Efforts will markedly increase when Planning is submitted

John Clare said...

Yes. Lights are on, windows etc opened and also a person seen taking in shopping. Squatters have (I believe) been removed in the past. Probably someone in there looking after the owners interest

Jimmy said...

I am looking forward to relocating to Worcester park when this centre opens. Let's all embrace multiculturalism, not fear.
This is UK 2014. I'm sure this will get approval, especially looking at how peaceful and beneficial the mosque has been to morden and the surrounding areas.
Peace for all, hate for none.

Carole said...

Starting to feel very confident reading the comments of the Cuddington volunteers , Cuddington ward and John Clare, Old Malden ward in the team efforts to oppose the proposal to develop The Worcester Park Tavern into a ISMAILI. CENTRE. I am sure the majority of W P feel the same and will show their support when asked . Keep up the tremendous effort.



James said...

Jimmy, looking forward to embracing you. I trust I have spelt your name correctly.

guest said...

Ah Jimmy such a shame as we will probably never meet as it is highly unlikely the Ismaili Centre will get approval. Never mind you could always move to Morden as the mosque there has been a huge success as you say! Looking forward to the application!

john said...

Finally, a sensible post. Jimmy, fingers crossed. The building is an eyesore at present.

James said...

John, Still awaiting to read a sensible post from you, maybe one of these days it will happen, keep our fingers crossed.

Guest G for Gridlock said...

Nice one, Jimmy! So to everyone who experiences gridlock traffic jams in Morden: You say, it's not due to the Mosque, it's due to their own failure to embrace multiculturalism?

The last time someone came out with something as illogical and ill-conceived as your comment, I seem to recall it was publicly and accurately labelled "Tosh!" by a Councillor.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

tp://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-aga-khan-the-singular-appeal-of-a-pluralist/article17041201/


The Aga Khan: the singular appeal of a pluralist
JANICE GROSS STEIN
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Feb. 21 2014, 6:10 PM EST

Monica said...

The Aga Khan + billions = unwanted Ismaili Centre. The Worcester Park Tavern = either housing, retail shops, (not fast food chain) or even another family public house. Jobs and benefits for the people of Worcester Park.

Guest said...

The above 'the Globe and Mail' link isn't working for me - is anyone else having better luck?

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Kindly copy and paste 'The Aga Khan: the singular appeal of a pluralist' in your browser. The Globe and Mail weblink posted in this blog was for information only - not to 'win' over the residents!
Dont think the vile comment of Monica deserves a response!
BTW, I wrote to the Agents of the Owners last week, requesting them to post a 'Statement of Intent' asap.

Guest said...

Mr Dharamsey, keep YOUR vile comments to yourself.Monica speaks on behalf of the majority of Worcester Park, as you will soon find out.Stop preaching to us about your beliefs we are not interested or and by the we are not scared as well!

Guest said...

The ONLY reason that the building is an eyesore is that the owners have chosen to let it become one. By now, it could be a shop offering employment locally, just like The Pound Shop or Iceland or Sainsburys . . . but the owners have their own agenda.

Sarah G said...

Mr Dharamsey, you do not wish to 'win' over the residents Every comment you post you manage to alienate even more of our residents of Worcester Park . Please stop making yourself look foolish, we are not interested in your views.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Sharing rumours about two alleged proposals - one from the Gypsies and another from local developers; both intending to build accommodation for their community and/or social housing for homeless respectively. No confirmation from the Council Planning Dept this morning!

Rupert said...

Definition of the word. SMOKE SCREEN , something said or done to hide the truth . We may have encountered a smoke screen from Abdullah in his latest posting . Nothing has changed, we still oppose the proposal to develop the Worcester Park Tavern into an Ismaili community centre.

Barry said...

The so-called "vile" comment from Monica got 11 votes..... yours got none.
Doesn't that tell you something Mr Dharamsey?
Are you sure you really want to move into an area where practically no-one wants you?

Kathy said...

Barry speaks for Worcester Park, WE DON'T WANT YOU. Move on.

Baxta said...

disgusting...try building a Christian drop in centre in a Muslim country and see how farthat gets you

Baxta said...

Taqqiya!!!! No such thing as a moderate Muslim. Does it not say in the Koran that Islam will dominate the world? Does not Islam mean Submission? Is it not the intention of every Muslim to conquer the West by bullet, bomb or the womb?

Gordo's Neighbour said...

@Baxta - don't be ludicrous! I've lived in Muslim countries and the overwhelming majority of Muslims I know have no intention of conquering the West, certainly not by bullet, bomb or womb! And in many of those countries, Christians do practice their faith (and build churches or drop-in Christian centres) openly. I've even had Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons ring on my door bell when living in one of those Muslim countries (and they were more in danger of a stoning by me than by any of my Muslim neighbours).

Perhaps you've more experience of the religion than I do - you seem to have read the Koran. Could you quote me the passage that says Islam will dominate the world? What is the context? I've never heard it referenced by any Muslim I know. Oh yes, I've read that certain Muslim clerics believe that to be the case, but it certainly isn't a widely held belief, in my experience of that religion.

I've said this before - I too share an unease about having an Islamic place of worship in WP, but honestly, I have yet to find a coherent objection that is not based on prejudice. Nothing that's been said on here by the objectors has helped. The traffic problems are real, but a pathetic excuse, otherwise we would be objecting to the new homes on Stone Place, even the High St rejuvenation! What's left is the rantings of a mob that is very clearly hellbent on 'running Muslims out of town'. Ironically, this could provide an astute applicant with the basis of a judicial argument in the case of the old Bank Chambers: that local objection is based on discriminatory prejudice.

And whilst Mr Abdulla's posts have been annoying and inimically maladroit (in trying to win over hearts and minds), at least they haven't been offensive!

John Clare said...

No doubt there were objections against the Stone Place development and the High Street rejuvenation. The decision regarding the Mosque development in Green Lane will be made in the future. No objections regarding the development do the Worcester Park Tavern have been placed (no Planning Application has been lodged). Objections lodged against any Planning Application cannot be classed as "the rankings of a mob" but as DEMOCRACY as any astute person will recognise including the law.

guest said...

However objections raised against a putative application on this site can be as "the rankings (sic) of a mob"

Brian k said...

Explanation requested from Gordo's Neighbour regarding your defence of Mr Abdulla's comments on the blog, in your words. 'Haven't been offensive". Let us remind ourselves, Ah yes , Monica is vile, Verity is sarcastic, Residents are scared, Alex & Bazza are basically liars and finally Ms Verjee is a damn liar, worthy of the devil. Um not offensive. Still you did state the dangers of you stoning Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons if they had the misfortune to ring your door bell. Rantings of a mob, so this is how you view the residents of Worcester Park. Again not too sure how the lovely folk of WP will react to your rantings, my mistake, comments, but there again the thought of you stoning someone has not endeared you to all that oppose the development of the Worcester Park Tavern into a Ismaili Centre.

Bernard said...

Abdulla. Jan Dharamsey, as the Honorary Chair of the Global Ismaili Muslim eForum would you like to comment on the posting from Gordo's Neighbour in which he states that your posts have been annoying and inimically ( unfavourable or hostile ) maladroit ( clumsy or awkward ).

Gordo's Neighbour said...

I did/do not class the act of lodging an objection as rantings of a mob. I have merely pointed out that so far, the basis of the objections have consisted of prejudiced arguments, fuelled by mob rantings to the tune of wanting to 'run Muslims out of town'. Those arguments have no merit and are contrary to the laws that our society has adopted through democratic process.

If anyone has a coherent basis to object to the proposals - that's not prejudiced and doesn't affect the rights of Muslims - I've yet to hear it.

guest said...

No logical objections to the proposed centre? EDL mob rule? Dear dear you are a very deluded person. I think my friend your are just playing "devils advocate" with the WP bloggers. Remember "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit", which just about sums up your comments.

John Clare said...

Perhaps, the best way you can hear a non prejudicial argument
Is to attend the Planning meetings once the proposal has been placed with the Royal Borough of Kingston rather than base an opinion on some views on this blog. Thousands of premises have been covered by the petition, signed by Residents within Worcester Park from all walks of life, all religions, nationalities
including Muslims. The fact is the Worcester Park Tavern is on a prime site, based very close to a major junction, it is the wrong
(proposal) to be acceptable to the community of Worcester Park.
The residents of Worcester Park deserve a better and more beneficial development on this site.

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

With utmost respect, if I was 'involved' in the decision making, this multi million pound project would never happen!
Unfortunately, as Chair of Ismaili eForum, I can only express condensed views and comments of the registered 'members.' It is the voluntary hierarchy appointed by The Aga Khan that make the final decisions!
As mentioned previously, I wrote to the Ismaili Benefactor's Agents to request their client, to issue a 'Statement of Intent,' but none seems to have been posted yet.
The onus is on them not me! No smoke screens. So, dont 'fire' blanks at me!
Perhaps, some of you who feel strongly and maybe rightly so, could reflect on what a pluralistic society means! The Oxford Dictionary refers to it as a social organisation, in which diversity of numerous distinct racial or religious or ethnic or cultural groups are present and tolerated!
Follow me on Twitter - my ID is uk999ers, and you will get to know me better!
After serving voluntarily within the Special Constabulary of the Metropolitan Police for over 10 years, I am absolutely nobody's fool!

Janet said...

I was astounded but pleasantly surprised that Abdulla Jan Dharamsey, the Chair of Ismaili eForum has today stated that if he was involved in the decision making, this multi million pound project at the WORCESTER PARK TAVERN would never happen. To all the thousands of Worcester Parker's who oppose this unwanted Ismaili center this latest statement proves that we will succeed. I hope the planning department at the Royal Borough of Kingston have taken note of this amazing disclosure from Abdulla Jan Dharamsey.

Clarity Helps said...

Thanks for the very helpful clarification Mr Dharamsey.
If the president of the voluntay hierarchy is still Mr Amin Mawji, it is hardly surprising that the campaign has focused on racism rather than the very real concerns of the local community. He is patron of Tell Mama (Measuring Anti Muslim Attacks)!

guest said...

Regarding the fact that Mr Dharamsey has stated he is against the proposal is interesting. The point is though does the fact if someone from the Ismaili community is against the idea mean anything more than someone who is not? The main point is the reason why and that is why we need to stop straying from main points, traffic congestion/parking/no job prospects for local people/no amenities for local people. We keep focusing on the Ismaili community which is not the issue and now that we know the president is Mr Amin Mawji is very interesting.This is someone who will try and make a race issue out of the proposal so beware.

Keith said...

Afraid not Dave, the sign has been left up since the Wocester Park Tavern changed ownership, along with the graffiti that appeared mysteriously soon after, surprising,remembering there have been surveillance cameras operating at all times . Yes , the Woosa has an eyesore appearance but it is only cosmetic , the interior is fine. It is obvious to all of Worcester Park that the owners have their own agenda in projecting the Woosa as an unwanted landmark.

Charlie c said...

Totally agree with you Keith, me thinks shady owners

Guest said...

Indeed. No doubt the claim will be that the forthcoming planning application will solve the problem of a derelict and rapidly decaying building ... So we will have to remind Kingston Planning that it's only derelict and decaying because the owner chose to prevent a commercial business operating there. [Despite at least two wishing to do so, according to statements by several members of the Ismaili community, at the public consultation].

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Breaking News: Caring, charitable, compassionate and considerate owners, but maybe misguided and misleading voluntary hierarchy, who have decided to turn down the offer from the benefactor on this occasion.
Do you deserve better? Only time will tell, as we happily look forward to celebrating our New Year (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz) on Friday - the first day of Spring! Farewell!

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey said...

Sir

I posted my comments with breaking news in reply to Charlie, which still hasn't appeared on your blog! Any reason for the delay?

I have a copy of it that is being sent as part of the News Release to the Local Paper this afternoon.

Kind regards

Abdulla Jan Dharamsey

guest D said...

Abdulla, if your link contained a hyperlink the Blog Master has to check that it is not malicious, i.e.no links to Trojans or worms. That is the reason for the delay not censureship

guest said...

So, are we to believe the owners have pulled out of the proposal? Does anyone know more about the "breaking news".

Sally said...

So Abdulla Jan Daramsey has ' breaking news. ' that he wishes to share with us. I will be astonished if the news will benefit people living in Worcester Park .

Guest said...

WPRA reports they are not proceeding...

guest said...

There is nothing on the WPRA website confirming this.

Guest said...

WPRA members received an email this morning.

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