Friday, 4 October 2013

Worcester Park Tavern Consultation Moved to the Tavern

I have received a message from the people who want to convert the old Worcester Park Tavern to a Ismaili Community Centre. They have moved the venue of the consultation to the Tavern building itself and have asked me to pass on the following information:
We would like to inform the local residents of Worcester Park that the venue for the Consultation on Friday 11th October and Saturday 12th October has been moved from St Mary’s Church to the proposed site for development: The Worcester Park Tavern, Park Terrace, Worcester Park, Surrey KT4 7JZ. The consultation times will be as follows:
  • Friday 11 October 2013 between 19.30 and 21.30
  • Saturday 12 October 2013 between 10.00 and 16.30
We have received some requests from local residents and businesses with queries as to the exact usage of the building as well as parking arrangements. We therefore feel that it would be more useful to host the consultation at the proposed site so that initial thoughts on plans can be shared and demonstrated more clearly.
We are very keen to alleviate any concerns that residents may have over the proposals and look forward to discussing these during the consultation weekend.

138 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Disappointed said...

I still just think it's a massive old building, with a load of heritage and it feels sad it's being put to such exclusive use. I wouldn't mind an Islamic Community Centre in WP (in the right location of course,) I have no objections, as I don't to the various churches, nor would I to any other religious meeting place. But why use such a massive building for what they claim is only a few people? What about the rest of the space?!

Wouldn't it be better to have some kind of multi-use centre? Rooms for meditation and prayer, areas for kids activities, rooms for hire. Something the WHOLE community could use in the right time and place.

Worcester Park would benefit from so many other things and as others said previously, this will only cater for such a small minority of our community.

I'm not sure we'll ever reclaim this lovely old landmark for the community as a whole, even as a hotel, restaurant, pub or flats. Disappointed but I'm not sure they're likely to change their minds, no matter how many turn up to argue the contrary... I'm sure a lot of us feel cheated or lied to given what was rumoured to be the original plan (hotel).

guest D said...

Those are useful suggestions go along and make them, or contact their consultants. I wouldn't be at all surprised that they are open to them in part. Particularly rooms for hire, though I'm sure like a Church Hall they would want powers of Veto.

But remember it is that community who are paying the bills.

Commentator said...

The borough of Kingston rejected a plan for a community centre from the same group last year:

The link below is to the office building that was included in the proposal:

The building has 40 car parking spaces.
We need to concentrate on parking and the gridlock traffic issues already identified as a major problem in Worcester Park.

commentator said...

Also, the previous proposal was for the daily attendance of 200 people, which makes you wonder why the one for Worcester Park is only for 40-50 people doesn't it?

Entertainment USA said...

“I'm sure a lot
of us feel cheated or lied to given what was rumored to be the original plan

Quite, could not
agree more. We we’re sold a complete kipper, even some of the poor staff who lost their jobs we’re
told this and it was even hinted at that they might get jobs in the new
establishment (hotel). How cruel.

Why lie? Why lead
local residents down the garden path like that? Or was this just deliberate

Begs the question
what else are they lying about or about to lie about?

I don't believe it! said...

How interesting!

Guest D wrote on the earlier thread: "Guest A and myself are using the information in their pamphlet which indicates their intentions and on that basis we can't see any reason for Kingston to turn it down."
Maybe Guests A & D can give us an update on where they think their judgement is lacking?
[You'll recall it was Guest D who (you'll read on the other thread), recommends we actively support this application, to stop Mr. Aziz's unrelated applications, for an unrelated group - another dire judgement call.]

2pm Saturday said...

I'd say we can learn more from your previous, supportive comments towards Mr. Aziz's application. Remember writing this?......

"Not everyone will travel by car. So maybe we can say 30 extra cars will be in the vicinity AT MOST during each session.

Can Worcester Park really not cope with 30 extra cars? If not, then we are in the shite with or without a mosque."
Seems it is your mind is closed, or at least not open to evidence, knowledge or experience from council planners, councillors, residents and traders. [Fortunately those making the decisions have more open minds].

JOHNC said...

I have also tried to contact the owners this week by email and as yet had no reply. I live just off the avenue and received no letter. I found out about the proposal through a friend of mine reading the blog. This leaves me very concerned, seems like minimum publicity to me. I also think meeting at 2pm on Saturday seems a good idea.

guest b said...

2pm Saturday at the Tavern? Just like the old days! Cannot wait.

Mary said...

I think it all sounds like a front. Praying in a pub, is that not contradictory? There is definitely an ulterior motive here.......................... I follow religion and understand that no true believer would want to use an old pub for any sort of religious prayers... believe me they are planning something else that is nothing to do with our community....

Mary said...

2pm on Saturday sounds like a good idea. We CANNOT let this happen. Pass the word.

BIG AL said...

Totally agree with Mary, remember Mr Aziz first application was for a "community centre" then his website was exposed. He then eventually had to admit the premises would be a mosque, the rest is history. Different owner different building same dishonesty. Now lets make it the same outcome. I will attend Friday evening and Saturday 2pm as this seems to be a very popular time.

Guest said...

The council is ONLY interested in making money and will not see the true implications of a Islamic Community Centre in the borough. They only have to visit Ilford, Redbridge and
Bethnal Green to see what issues and problems these types of so called "Community
Centers" bring and impact on local communities and residents. The Islamic communities have so much money and legal might on their side that they will keep at it... till there is no desire from local residents to fight anymore and eventually get their way. (we have seen this time and time again but have been powerless to do anything because councilors/residents do not have a voice or support from councilors and residents)
Communities within their own faith and people of Asian/Indian origin have seen how these community Centers dominate and dictate their will on others and persuade people into accepting their beliefs, ideas and values.

As a person of Indian origin I say STOP this from happening BUT from past experience the council will take no notice of local residents’ opinions and push this proposal through. If we object strongly we will be branded as racists.

I for one will be at the meeting but can anyone let us know who is driving the Anti Community Centre campaign?

KT4 said...

I think you are being very unfair to Sutton and Kingston Councils. Thus far, both Sutton and Kingston Councils have actively listened to residents, traders and councillors, considered strong evidence from them - and acted upon it. As a result, thus far, all such applications have been discredited and rejected: what more can the local Councils do?

You lucky people! said...

Yes, well maybe they are going to simply turn the other 150 away at the door - or somehow expect Kingston Council to stop them parking and before they even get to the door? (You know, just like Mr. Aziz's cunning plan, which inspired a load groan at the recent public meeting).

guest said...

Many thanks for your prompt reply KT4.

Firstly has anyone from the council visited the areas I have mentioned and seen at first hand what happens to local communities once councils allow developments such as these to proceed?

The local outlook and feel of the community changes very quickly and current residents tend to move out of the area giving an opportunity for like minded people to move into the area. This in turn gives these residents an opportunity to elect their own chosen councillors. These councillors are sympathetic to their views and ideas and in turn quickly allow them to open more of these centres in the boroughs without objections.

I for one would love to be part of a multi cultural society but in this case we have been mislead. (See Big AL and other comments below).

Rajesh Saini said...

This is a very progressive community, whos spiritual head is the Aga Khan

Rajesh Saini said...

here is some of the development work they do.

Guest said...

Rajesh.. Many thanks for your comments.

Please note we already know about the excellent work the organisation does all over the world and quite rightly we should be proud of their achievements.

But in this case… the local residents have been misled in the past as to the true purpose of the Community Centre. The people proposing this development have treated the local community with contempt and have left a feeling of mistrust with its leaders.

If the community centre wants to be part of the local community the simplest solution would be to have a membership scheme to join the community centre, whereby everyone is welcome regardless of any age, gender or religious persuasion.

One of the main criteria’s by the council in allowing a community Centre to go ahead should be that the centre should actively promote, recruit and subsidise at
least 40% membership from other religious and non-religious communities otherwise it is NOT allowed to operate.

Will the leaders agree to this?

Look forward to your comments

Guest said...

I do not want to stand in way of people's right to worship but we have to consider the future of Worcester Park and the community as a whole.

In the Planning Application that was rejected for an Ismaili Community Centre in Hook, the Kingston Courier quoted that:

"The Jamatkhana Ismail community, counting of 600 members around Kingston, was looking for a venue to hold its social activities such as yoga and dance classes, youth club seminars, lectures and workshops.

The expected daily attendance was of 200 people." 54 parking spaces would not be sufficient to accommodate this number of people and one assumes that the attendance on a Friday would be far higher. This would surely put enormous pressure on the traffic and parking situation in Worcester Park at an important time for shoppers and traders.

This proposal, regarding the future of The Worcester Park Tavern, comes at a time when Sutton Council is making a substantial investment in regenerating the High Street and we are starting to see new shops opening in the area. If our roads and parking areas are blocked on Fridays, it will drive shoppers to other centres and the hopes for the futureof the High Street will be dashed. Therefore,reluctantly, I would urge the
councillors and the people of Worcester Park to reject this proposal and to make their feelings known.

guest D said...


Kingston council can only reject the application (if there is one) on the basis of planning law. On the basis of the proposals in the consulation document there would be no reason to reject the application even for a larger number of people than they suggest. As the building has already been shown over many years to be suitable for the mass assembly of many hundreds of people and there are many instances of Pubs being coverted to D1/D2 use around the country.

The Kingston Courier also stated that ill feeling generated by the English Defence League played a part in the rejection, that approach will have increasingly limited effect, as before long this community will fight back by appealing to the decency of the British People.

The 77th aniversary of the the 'Battle of Cable Street' was last Friday, at the time the Government were reluctant to step in in support of another Abrahimic religious minority (the Jews). They believed that the support for this very vocal minority was much greater than it was. In the end 2000-3000 of Sir Oswald Moseley's brownshirts guarded by 6000 police were stopped from marching through Cable Street by a coalition of 100,000 of the silent majority.

Though it is unlikely to come to a battle in the streets, the fight would be more likely fought out in the press as was the 1963 'Bristol Bus Boycott' where the Bristol Council was forced to back down from its racist position by the weight of public opinion and the 68 Race Relations act followed.

As the Lib Dems have no friends in the press except the Guardian, and the Guardian would not support bigotry, they would probably cave in pretty quickly.

Rajesh Saini said...

Would be interested to know if this is the case, however from what I know of the current supreme leader 'The Aga Khan' and of what I have heard from him about his beliefs and ethos, I do not see (and hope) that this will be a problem. He seems a very enlightens and progressive individual. He has received the Tolerance Award from the Evangelical Academy of Tutzing and is a great beliver in co-operation and understanding : Here is the speech he made when he received the award.

Rajesh Saini said...

to ad further: In consonance with this vision of Islam and a long-standing tradition of service to humanity, the Ismailis have elaborated a well-defined institutional framework to build capacity and improve the quality of life within the communities in which they live. Under the Aga Khan’s leadership, this framework expanded and evolved into the Aga Khan Development Network, a group of institutions working to improve living conditions and opportunities in specific regions of the developing world. In every country, these institutions work for the common good of all citizens regardless of their origin or religion. Their individual mandates range from architecture, education and health to the promotion of private sector enterprise, the enhancement of non-government organisations and rural development.

You lucky people! said...

To anyone (except perhaps those located on the political extremes), there is a notable contrast between the constructive, reasoned and eloquent comments from 'Guest' above and the facile, enraged and rambling political diatribe, in response, from 'Guest D' below.

To seek an objective for democratic process and democratically elected representatives to (as they put it) "cave in" under the pressure of bigots like this writer is a telling insight into their unbalanced mentality and patently hostile agenda.

Fortunately, our councils and councillors are well used to dealing with bigots, both for and against. And thus far, both Kingston and Sutton Councils have democratically and transparently upheld the planning laws. Long may this continue.

With regard to the planning application itself, the applicant, in their own words claims 600 members within the Kingston area alone, yet has a catchment area including all of southwest London, including Sutton, Merton, Wandsworth, Richmond and Epsom. That's likely to be 1,000s of people, many of which lack direct public transport links to Worcester Park, so will be travelling by car - with just 54 spaces for all of them!

In addition, looking at the same group's previously rejected planning application, this was located at an industrial estate, just a stone's throw from the A3. This new application is in a residential area, roughly 2 miles from the A3, accessible via a single lane by car and without direct public transport for most of the community within the catchment area. In short, this site looks WORSE than the last one.

I shall be exercising my democratic right to submit a reasoned objection to this application and I will be ignoring the bigots on both sides of the debate, happily, neither of whom show any sign of forcing Kingston Council to "cave in".

Rajesh Saini said...

Well lets be honest here, you seem to be missing a trick regarding how well this location is connected and served by by public transport. I do not need to remind you by the frequency of buses in all direction on this route and how that there is a railway station right outside. Also what are you suggesting that every person who attends will come in their own car and there will be no car sharing ? I think the Parking issue you are mentioning is a complete red herring and you need to do your research in terms of transport links.

Also the is a perfectly empty car park which is a few minutes walk away (Waitrose), which when i looked last Friday was hardy 20% full.

I have been in the pub when it has been very Busy in the past and there was no mention of parking issue then.

guest D said...

I think you were lucky with your timings, I was also in there on Friday around midday and it was at or above capacity, cars circling looking for spaces and two cars waiting for a disabled (blue badge) space to become vacant.

Even Mr Aziz's parking survey showed that parking is close to saturation at Worcester Park.

But unlike Mr Aziz's application which was turned down in part because it had no on site parling this application if it does go forward will have sufficient on site parking for the numbers proposed.

guest D said...

I remember in my youth he was often in the tabloids due to his 'playboy' behaviour and sporting activities. He does seem to have quietened down in his old age and the duties of his post made him much better behaved.

guest D said...

Historically most churches were built next door to pubs. The tradition of the Public House goes back to pre-christian times, well before St Augustine in the 6th Century arrived with his mission.

Deja vu said...

"Also the is a perfectly empty car park which is a few minutes walk away (Waitrose), which when i looked last Friday was hardy 20% full."
I see, a plan for 'a space for meditation and spiritual practices', that relies on commandeering the town's car park for attendees far and wide.
Now, where have I heard that before???
Had you considered calling it 'green' and stating that everyone attending would walk there and would live or work within 700m of the site?

Deja vu said...

"There is a big Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Centre and Mosque in Mordon (sic) which is 10 times bigger than this proposal... would any one like to high light any community problems or issue there have been since this was built ?"
Rajesh, I thought at first that your above comment was a wind-up! But as you are spelling 'Morden' incorrectly, I'm going to guess you're unfamiliar with the area.
Suffice to say, there are huge parking and traffic problems in the area, resulting from the 'mega-mosque', which have gridlocked the area so badly that the police now have to try to help to clear the traffic every Friday.
If you look on the web more closely, you will read that the mosque has been a disaster for residents and local businesses - even the planning application for Green Lane didn't try to hide the problems that Morden now faces! It certainly serves as a warning of what could happen in the neighbouring London Boroughs, if councils and councillors naïvely grant planning permission.

Deja vu said...

Everyone in the community needs a place to live. By contrast, I'm guessing that very few members of the community need "a space for meditation and spiritual practices". Especially if it is exclusively for the Ismaili community and particularly if it means gridlocked streets and a car park that nobody in the local community can find a space to park in!

Guest said...

Many thanks for your comments.
Dear KT4
I have tried repeatedly to try to get anyone to confirm if this centre will be available to anyone and to date no response.
I wonder why?

Please note we already know about the excellent work the organisation does all over the world and quite rightly we should be proud of their achievements.

But in this case… the local residents have been misled in the past as to the true purpose of the Community Centre. The people proposing this development have treated the local community with contempt and have left a feeling of mistrust with its leaders.

If the community centre wants to be part of the local community the simplest solution would be to have a membership scheme to join the community centre, whereby everyone is welcome regardless of any age, gender or religious persuasion.

One of the main criteria’s by the council in allowing a community Centre to go ahead should be that the centre should actively promote, recruit and subsidise at
least 40% membership from other religious and non-religious communities otherwise it is NOT allowed to operate.

Will the leaders agree to this?

Still no reply..

guest D said...

To answer your comments which are I feel valuable to the debate.

You say the local residents have been mislead in the past, perhaps Mr Aziz did play his cards to close to his chest, but he never applied for use as a community centre and he represented a different group. I personally feel his sins should not be loaded on this group just because they are connected by the same over arching religion.

I also feel that you shouldn't expect any replies until after the consulation is completed, I agree a courtesy reply would have been a good idea, but to reply before they have gathered and evaluated all the ideas would be wrong as that may lead to confusion and false expectations.

johnno said...

Are perfectly empty car park! That is one of the funniest comments I habe ever heard on the blog. I hope the owners use that fact as well. That should end the application quickly. By the way some of the "new" community members were there at the weekend. They were not exactly friendly to put it mildly. See you all 2pm next week.

wpman said...

Empty car park ! When was that . I live 10 mins walk from the high street rarely use my car to go there the car park is always pretty much full and as for the earlier comment that the visitors to the proposed centre will bring much needed custom the the local shops they will be in their cars and away to wherever they have come from.
Much needed housing is the best solution to this building.
Me racist ? Of course I was one of the 600 objectors to Green Lane.
Will the bar be open Fri / Sat for the meeting ?

Guest 1 said...

I don't think a planning application has been placed with The council.

Guest 1 said...

I would also point out the it's Kingston Council NOT Sutton Council who will make the decision when the application is placed .

T said...

Mary, interested to hear what religion you adhere to and why a former pub could not be used as a house of worship? *off topic I know, but I'm genuinely interested*

T said...

Actually, the vast majority of people (according to census data) are religious (or claim to be), so in theory a space for spiritual practices should be very popular. Not that their plans for the tavern seem to focus purely on the religious, as far as I can see.

guest said...

Guest said...

Dear Guest D
Whilst I take all you say on board ... sorry I cannot see as to why the COMMUNITY should not have a answer regarding membership.
How can the local COMMUNITY make a informed decision on the centre if we have no clear direction/intentions as to the membership to the COMMUNITY Centre.
How can it lead to confusion or false expectations? surely by not supplying us with the information from "day one" leads to mistrust and confusion.
By being open and transparent and welcoming all from the community we would all benefit from a Community Centre instead of a select few?
To get a answer after consultation is just too late.

guest D said...

I don't know whether the below is true or not, I'm just basing this on times when I have been employed to run a consulation for my customers.

I expect that the agency they have employed will gather all the comments and write a report to the Ismalia group, in that they will identify the recurring themes and the issues that seem of most importance to the local community

The Ismalia group will then have to decide whether they want to accept some of those requests or reject them or even abandon the idea completely.

As we are dealing with a third party they will not be able to promise anything and in addition they or the Ismalia group will have to run the suggestions through a legal team, for example someone suggested discounted fees for people of other religions. I suspect that would be illegal under the Equal Opportunities act, but could be recast to discounts for those living within 1km of the centre and be legal (I think).

Again if they are acting in an open and honest manner they will publish the results of the consulation and their proposals well before they make a planning application and ideally have a second consulation on those plans.

If they try and act like Mr Aziz and hide the planning application then I would put it to a far more rigorous scrutiny than I would do otherwise.

To provide the information from day 1 before all ideas have been gathered and evaluated (particularly for legality) could mean that confusion occurs. I know I tend to get very angry if I feel I have been promised something and then it doesn't materalise.

I completely agree that by being open and honest and providing something that would also be of benefit to the existing community is the best solution for all involved.

Guest A said...

Guest A Here.

You do realise that its a different building in a different place which got rejected?

For gods sake read up on some planning law rather than assuming you know everything. If this individual scheme will work based on its own merits, it will be approved. If it does not work, it will not.

Saying another site totally unrelated in location and space etc was rejected and using it as a basis for trying to have this one rejected shows how ignorant you are.

I have neither the time nor incliniation to go through the Kingston application to find out specifically why it was rejected, but I would guess it has little to do with any effect on Worcester Park where this one is proposed.

Precedence being set by planners (for extensions and the like) obviously exists, but on simiar streets or neighbouring properties, not different towns! Every council in the country could reject an application for them if they dont meet their specific criteria, but if they do this time, they cannot reject it - especially if the only objection is thinly veiled racism.

Guest A said...


Buildings around the country such as this one are approved a change of use every day.

Your racist views will not hold sway when this goes to planning. If you want to object properly you better brush up on your planning law and present a valid reason IN LAW as to why it should be rejected.

Without confimed facts and figures for things, you will fail.

Saying 'ohhh, but, there, you know, is so much traffic around here and this will only make things worse!' will make you look as ignorant as you seem to be on here. If I was a planner you would be laughed out of the room.

Guest A.

Jushy said...

First of all I want to clarify that this is not an Islamic community centre but an Ismaili one. I as a Sunni (mainstream) Muslim, will not be using this centre for worshipping as I wouldn't use a synagogue or a temple for worship. However I respect every religious organisation and support their right to build a community centre for themselves as they have privately paid for the building. For all those people who care about their 'community' and want something they can use then I suggest they collect funds and appeal to the council for whatever project they have in mind.
I am so shocked at the bigotry that exists in Worcester Park. You guys did a fantastic job of stopping the Green Lane Mosque being built and now people are against this. Is it becaus it's something to do with 'Muslims'? I find it hard to believe that there would be this much objection if a Jewish group wanted to open a community centre.

Rajesh is right, the traffic issue is a red herring. This means that you guys would object to anything opening in Worcester park that would attract lots of people- and you want your local businesses to prosper? Use your heads and think how local businesses would benefit from the extra custom.

Guest said...

The traffic issue is not a red herring!!! The Waitrose Car Park is primarily for shoppers and is important to the regeneration of the high street.
Parking in Worcester Park is already a problem as many of us have found as we have driven round the car park looking for a space and we cannot afford to have our parking areas blocked by a large influx of people on Friday which a key day for the High Street.
Most people in the area would not object to an Ismaili Community Centre if it was not going to be situated in area which already suffers from traffic congestion at certain times of the day.
Having read of the numbers that were talked about in the Kingston Courier for a Community Centre in Hook of 600 members and an expected daily attendance of 200 people and presumably significantly more on a Friday, I am sure Jushi will understand why the residents and shop owners in Worcester Park are concerned about traffic congestion and parking.

Jushy said...

It has it's own car park! Chances are most people will park on manor drive if there's no parking in the pub car park. What if this venue was turned into a Shiraz Mirza type hall for public use? There would be more cars as there's always events and parties going on there. Do we prefer for the building to remain vacant and boarded up ? It's even graffiti on there now!

guest D said...

I agree it's not a red herring and I'm sure that this has been raised with this groups' planners at the pre planning meetings. But as there is on site parking and the current proposals are for a number that that amount of parking would cope with, I don't see Kingston planners raising an objection.

It does raise an interesting issue though, do Kingston's planners have to worry about increasing Sutton's parking issues? I haven't found an answer to that question.

WPBlog10 said...

From people who attend the surgery at the Manor Drive Health Centre, I understand there is already a parking problem which would only be exacerbated by additional people parking in the road.

The Shiraz Mirza Centre is not near a major shopping area or a busy health centre and therefore the same issues do not arise.

Unfortunately, the 54 parking spaces mentioned are not nearly enough to cope with the number of people mentioned in the Kingston Courier article which talked of 600 members and a daily attendance of 200 people and one assumes more people on a Friday.

The objection is not about having an Ismaili Community Centre but the impact it would have on Worcester Park High Street and the surrounding areas.

guest said...

I think you probably said the same about green lane. Lets see the petition for and against. It will never happen in fact due to the numbers we are talking about it probably has an even less chance than green lane.

guest said...

WPB wrote

They are looking at 40-50 people attending each day (there is parking
for 54 cars) with a maximum of 120 attending for special occasions such
as festivals etc.

So on this basis why has it even less chance?

guest said...

Very strange that they have changed their predictions from 200 to 50(see recent rejected application from Kingston council), considering that their membership has gone up in the last year(see website). I know of a recent ongoing application in Green Lane that keeps changing important details in the hope of getting approval. On that basis my friend no chance.

I don't believe it! said...

"I have neither the time nor incliniation to go through the Kingston application to find out specifically why it was rejected".
Never mind, I'm sure this won't stop you from continuing to share with everyone what you plainly don't know.

"For gods sake read up on some planning law rather than assuming you know everything."
Of all the people writing on this blog, YOU were the person who wrote that?... Like, ever thought of actually practising what you preach?

guest said...

Communities within your own community and people of Asian/Indian origin disapprove to this community Centre. There is no bigotry whatsoever from all the communities in Worcester Park. On the contrary we are very tolerant and accommodating.

As a person of Indian origin I say STOP this from happening on the grounds of unfair membership and parking issues and your argument that this is being resisted because it has something to do with the Muslim community is totally unfounded. Once again please do not go down the road where if someone disagrees with your ideas or views you quickly brand them as racists.
Give the community of Worcester Park some credit for standing up to what they believe. PLEASE...

Guest said...

I suspect any successful planning application will have to contain more substance than accusations of ignorance, racism and bigotry. That indeed would probably provoke the planner to laugh the application out of the room.

Guest said...

Refreshing comments, though I don't expect being of Asian/Indian origin will stop the now infamous 'Guest A' from calling you ignorant, a racist and a bigot! [Not necessarily in that order].

I wonder if the A in Guest A stands for "Agenda"?

KeepItLocal said...

That’s funny Jushy not Islamic? The Sutton Guardian
describes them thus: “The Ismaili
community, from the Shia branch of Islam” more detail can be found here for
Most popular in Iran it seems from the chart; see “List of nations with Shia

y said...

I would just like to ask will this community center be for everyone in the community or just for the islamis. also I live on central road and never see islamis in any of local shops spending in our community so why do you want to build a center in an area that has hardly any islamis and they will have to travel from out of town to come here causing more and more traffic

Jushy said...

KeepItlocal- The point is that it's not usable for the majority of Muslims in WPanyway. Despite this I hope they're able to go ahead with their plans.
People who are still moaning about losing a landmark and traditional public house, maybe they should have visited it more so that the owners didn't feel the need to sell up. Pubs are closing all over the country, that's really not the fault of the new buyers!

Jasperjames said...

Funny they are not interested in the manor pub in Maldon manor ??
They wouldn't want to risk it, the police wouldn't want to upset the council tennents so the middle class gets screwed again.
I will be moving if this community centre, not for the local gets built, what gives them the right to invade an area most don't even live in. Disgusting , just try doing this in their country or even Bradford, no chance might upset the Muslims .. Haha .. No one gives a dam about the locals.

yrubeingfools said...

when was the last time anyone saw these so called local Ismailis spendining in our shops or even in the high street I live on high street and may be see one or two a month and on speaking to them they all seem to come from places like battersea to go to ryan gate so why why why put a community centre which is not going to be for the real community of wpk but for people who live far away

Rajesh Saini said...

Outrages comments from someone who seems completely ignorant. Ismailism is a religion not a country!!! Your comet its like saying Catholics should build churches in their own country (And what country would that would that be then???). Your comments on invasion is offensive, What research have you done about the demographics of the Ismailis who have proposed this center ? you will probably find that the majority are law abiding, tax paying British Citizens who where probably born in the United Kingdom. I am British of Indian origin am not Muslim and local and I do give a dam. I will be happy to see the proposal and then make my judgement whether or not the center is a good idea based on facts,

guest D said...

Could you please tell me how you identify someones religion by looking at them? Unless that religion requires some form of dress or hair length, e.g. Hassidic Jews or Sikhs, or they are a cleric of that religion e.g. it's easy to spot the Pope is a Catholic or the Archbishop of Canterbury is an Anglican. But can you tell the religion of anyone walking down Central Road unless you know them personally?

Karina said...

Great, you've given me another reason to support this application. Worcester Park will be a far better place with people like you around. And please, don't bother coming back to visit.

y said...

how can you call something a community center when it clearly will not be for the whole community and just for a number of private members. they should be calling it a members club. why call a spade a fork when its clearly a spade.

GUEST said...

Better still why don,t YOU leave. Green Lane petition, 4000 against and the grand total for...3 .By the way do know what matters regarding these petitions? The people that live in the KT4 area. Totally agree with Jasperjames here SEE YOU 2PM SATURDAY.

SW said...

Interesting that Karina intends supporting this application for an Islamic centre at the end of The Avenue, and incur the traffic and parking issues that it will introduce (every day of the week). . . but on the very same blog, she writes to express deep dissatisfaction with the traffic and parking apparently caused by the Baptist Church at the same end of the Avenue (only on Sunday).
Maybe Karina would care to explain to us her "radical" concept of "Everyday Muslim traffic = good!. . . Sunday Christian traffic = bad!". Presumably it's not just limited to traffic, but also the vehicle drivers and more broadly, people in general that she views in the same way? Do tell us, Karina. . . .

Karina said...

See, you're making assumptions there. The WP Tavern has a far bigger car park than the baptist church and the attendance is probably going to be more spread out and so likely isn't going to cause any traffic problems. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the people commenting on this community centre that *might* cause traffic issues, but they apparently don't care about the church that *does* cause traffic issues. The traffic has very little impact on me anyway, I tend to ride my bike more than drive.

As for your insinuation that I'm anti-Christian, I actually don't follow or support any religion. I'm supporting the community centre because

1. The WP Tavern is sat crumbling and making Worcester Park look awful. It's better to have something being done with it than have it get worse and worse.
2. The community of Worcester Park desperately needs a better mix of people from other ethnic groups and religions (as demonstrated by the some of the disgusting comments here and on the blog's Facebook page).
3. I want to show the people proposing this that not everyone living in Worcester Park is racist.
4. More people coming to Worcester Park (especially so close to Central Road) means more business for local traders and a more prosperous high street.

Karina said...

Last time I checked, I live in the KT4 area, so I have as much right to my opinion on this as you do. And please stop shouting, it's rude.

A said...

I find it amazing how everyone against this proposition has their own bizarre reasons why they do not wish for the community centre to go ahead. The objections range from too much traffic to "why would I not be allowed in" to finally a jasperjames who due to not having the ability to think up of a reasonable argument, settles with making us aware how much he dislikes the race itself.
As a WP resident I am willing to listen to their application with an open mind. Personally I will not be affected by the proposed times. Yes I do venture out in the evenings but every evening, no I don't. As for parking, again I will already be in my parking space for the proposed times so see no problem.
I never made use of the pub and I am glad it shut down. If this proposed community centre doesn't go ahead the site will no doubt be sold on and then what, who knows what it will turn into or whether it will generate traffic throughout the day.
My view is why turn down silver in the hope of getting gold and end up with copper.

y said...

you keep calling it a community center what community is it going to serve because I can asure you it wont be serving the majority of people who live in worcesterpark just a few that DONT want to even be bothered to and be a part of our community . if you build a community centre then you should let the community in its whole entirety use it not just private members that are only accepted by there religious beliefs.

guest said...

Precisely, the last thing we want is McDonalds getting hold of it, imagine the mahem then!! People would be begging for a community centre!!

B said...

But those opposing don't think of the possibilty of a Trojan Horse application. It could go to an all night Tesco's with only building consent.

Miss Marple said...

Suggest anyone with reservations regarding the proposal for an Ismaili Community Centre
at The Worcester Park Tavern, should acccess and read - case studies, planning , (Conversion of vacant office building in Edgbaston into an Ismaili Community Centre) This shows JTS's
procedure on convincing residents If in doubt do not complete and sign the Consultation form which will be given to you when you attend the Consultation. This form will go towards the supporting documents for their planning application ! Be very careful

Guest-X said...

Karina I disagree this WILL cause major parking/traffic issues for nearby streets and local residents. Not everyone is racist so no need to get defensive, us local residents are entitled to our opinion too as we will be most affected by this.

Graham said...

The High Street is dying because the "community" shop at supermarkets. The pub is dead because all you locals failed to use it. Likewise the Organ & Dragon etc etc. Lots of misguided people already think this is an application for a mosque - it isn't. I'd rather it be a community centre than a drive-thru or yet another "convenience" store. I was born in WP and have lived here for all of my 51 years. I have not migrated from South London like many of the bloggers and see no more harm in this proposal than in the social change in general as people move from one part of the country to another.

A said...

You seem to miss the point! There is a building sat there which has been sold. You're moaning because you don't want there to be any traffic whatsoever at 7pm. It appears you must be miraculously using that road every single day at exactly the same time precisely at 7pm to be so worried about it!!
If it turns into a Burger King or McDonalds and litter is being thrown, youths congregating and traffic is busy throughout the day, no doubt you'll be sat in a corner somewhere yet again moaning but this time saying "How was I to know"

guest said...

I think there are very very few bigots involved in these discussions, there are a lot of concerned citizens that have been listening too their exagerations.

Everyone needs to weight and see what their proposals actually are then if they will increase the traffic/parking over the previous use you will have grounds to raise an objection.

Guest-X said...

There is no need for petty insults we are all entitled to our own opinion.

I am also willing to bet there would be more locals from all ethnic backgrounds visting a burger king rather than this community centre...

Furthermore I somehow don't think they will adhere to the stated times once the community centre opens but we will see. As they say talk is cheap.

They will also have a function room that will be bookable, what about the impact of that or will they only book that out after 7pm too???

Susank said...

Having read all the information I can about the Ismaili community and the Agha Khan Development Network I personally have no objections to this community centre going ahead, but if you do please make yourselves aware of Miss Marples link with regards to the Edgbaston site. Any forms you sign today will be used to favour the application with the council.

SW said...

Karina, assumptions are unnecessary, and there is no "I was just pointing out" about this. Your hypocrisy is disgraceful and let me highlight to readers, that your memory of your own comments is as selective as your support or contempt for differing religious groups:

Karina writes, QUOTE, "Yep, parking at the bottom of The Avenue is a nightmare on a Sunday, as is trying to drive past the Baptist Church, but there's a distinct absence of people complaining about it. I don't think that would be the case if it were a Mosque rather than a church." [Remember, Karina?]

And then we see a barrage of comments, containing her pig-headed support for a Muslim group, seeking to establish themselves in exactly the same area, attracting EXTRA traffic and parking SEVEN DAYS A WEEK!

And directly above, Karina now writes, QUOTE, "The traffic has very little impact on me anyway, I tend to ride my bike more than drive."
Is Karina a lying hypocrite? Or a racist? [Or is the word 'racist' just a one size fits all insult against anyone who thinks the same planning laws apply to everyone, including Muslims?]

Finally, whilst complaining about everyone else's comments, do note that Karina has taken the trouble to try to block anyone reviewing her own trail, by the futile act of trying to set her disqus properties to 'private'. [Click on 'Karina', in green at the top of any of her posts, and you'll see]. It seems Karina does hypocrisy in a big way!

Jenny said...

I attended the consultation evening last night which I have to say was a very slick operation both by the Ismaili Community and their consultants. I was escorted around by a very articulate volunteer who explained to me the expected numbers of members who would be attending, the types of activities through out the week etc. My concern which I raised with her and after discussing with many local residents at the event was the added traffic congestion that this would cause. I and like many others commute along the busy Malden Road every morning and evening and YES I am using it like so many others between 6- 6.30 onwards Or I use the Ewell by pass. Both these roads via a few rat runs, are the only access route to and from the proposed community centre and we all know what happens when there are problems on the A3 - it becomes grid locked. The majority of activities held at the centre will be in the evening and at weekends and on a Friday for prayers from 7.30pm they expect to accommodate 140 plus attendees. How many extra cars on the road during the rush hour will this bring, making most local residents who commute along these roads journey even longer - plus the delays for public transport. The volunteer did advise me that many of the members would use the train as many attend from London after work, however they do have their elders whom would arrive by car, whether a pooled car or individually and of course those from other local areas.
I have to say that this building is not suitable for use by either a community centre, KFC,Tesco's or any other busy operation. The junction where it is situated is a two way traffic light system also adding to traffic congestion and of course don't forget the pollution levels, with added cars waiting to enter and leave the centre. As for Parking - 52/4 car parking spaces is not enough, plus that they have 6 festivals a year but no weddings ( I asked this question) there will no doubt be overspill to the surrounding residential streets, in turn eventually leading to the Council bringing in residents parking, again the local residents will suffer.
I would urge all those that object to the centre on the grounds of traffic and pollution make their objections known immediately to their local councillor's (Note - I did not see a Councillor there from Kingston - why was this!), be it Kingston, Sutton, or Epsom & Ewell. I myself will be writing to my local MP. I am also going to make comments to the consultants as I don't think my comments and those of others will be of any favour to their application, so not entirely agreeing to what you have said susanK. I am also going to commence a petiton asking for local residents support - watch this space.

My I conclude by saying that this building perhaps should be converted into affordable housing similar to the apartments built at the old drift bridge.

Karina said...

It doesn't impact me personally because I don't drive much. I do however have eyes, and I can see that the traffic is objectively a nightmare. This will probably not be the case with the community centre as there is a much bigger car park.

As far setting my disqus settings to private, it's because I use this account in other places in addition to here and I don't particularly want you lot following me around the internet. I haven't deleted anything, and I've made very few comments on this blog anyway. Look around, I still stand by everything I've said.

I think it's pretty funny that you're accusing me of hypocrisy here when I'm using my real name and you're hiding behind a pseudonym.

Susank said...

I have just attended the consultation and as Jenny says it is a very 'slick' operation. I have however not changed my mind and am still in favour of the development going ahead. The people holding the consultation do not even own the building yet but as the current owner is a member of the Ismaili Community I'm sure this is only a formality. As at other Ismaili Centres in The UK they plan in consultation with groups such as Age Concern to hold senior days there throughout the week where all elderly no matter their faith can attend and also yoga classes and the like for both young and old. The premises will also be available for functions although no alcohol will be allowed. The exterior of the building will stay the same with possible plans to landscape the grassed area on the Malden Road side. Extensive alterations will take place inside, with a tender going out for the contract. Jenny, you cannot possibly suggest that affordable housing will provide less of a traffic problem than this community centre or do you think 'poor people' don't have cars? People of Worcester Park are afraid of anything new and most are substituting the word Islamic for Ismaili, different things. Read about it and then come up with a viable alternative if you wish, the owners are still open to offers. And whatever you do please don't go down and there and submit these people to racial harassment today, as happened yesterday. Whatever your beliefs there is no place for that kind of trouble in our community.

Jenny said...

Who mentioned anything about poor people - thats a sweeping statement to say that affordable housing is for poor people! I'm afraid that is obviously your own view as quite frankly not mine. Affordable housing is for most ordinary people trying to get a decent home to live in, and not the big city bankers cashing in. The conversion of apartments at the drift bridge hardly has any impact on traffic and as similar to this proposed site, is fairly near a station. Making it a residence you then have residents contributing to local council taxes - that's the viable alternative.

Can I just say that I didn't see or hear any harassment last night I just heard the genuine concerns of locals worried about the added traffic/parking pressure that this or as I have said any other large operation with a customer/membership base will have.

Ranger84 said...

I attended the consultation this morning and what a creepy set up it was. Around 50 volunteers there who it felt had been asked to attend to show "English" they were! Slick suits, young men winking and the offer of a cup of tea and a biscuit-how very British. You could not get to one single clip board without being pounced on by someone wanting to speak to you. My first question was whether they had bought the site yet and were they connected to the current owner (who paid £1.38m for the site back in 2012) the response was no they had not bought the site yet but the current owner had many options and could turn it into gulp a KFC wide eyes a mcdonalds or shock horror a nightclub!!!! Wasn't I scared...erm no I'd quite like a mcdonalds there! Also why would he sell it to KFC when there is already one in high street?? Seemed to me the volunteer was saying this to try and scare me and to show that this would be better. Next question was did they have an option to purchase over the site-yes we have he told me. That's funny coz it's not listed as a charge on the title deeds at land registry!!!! Next question what use class will it come under? Had to ask 3 different people-finally told D1-right so that includes place of worship then. Next question asked how 54 cars all at once would get out of the car park after meditation or other events especially ehen traffic was already backing up the avenue at 10am-response was well people in the avenue will have right of way....I said yes but in fairness people won't wait they will inch out....response was this msn turned from all polite to quite nasty and said "we are not crazy drivers we are fair drivers" erm ok calm down mate and where did the "we" come from? Next questions why would there be big gates across both entrances-security I was told. Yes but why the pub never needed them? We'll we will be investing lots of money I was told. I felt like they were hiding something-do they experience security problems at their centre that weareresidents are not being told about?? I felt very uncomfortable during the whole thing.

guest said...

I too attended the consultation yesterday, but I am afraid I found too many important facts to be misleading. For example the number of people attending in the evenings would be between 45-70. On Fridays and specials occasions it would be 135+, these figures were based on their Sheen branch. We were then informed that the Sheen branch was a rented building and too small thus the reason for purchasing the WP Tavern. I then pointed out that if the current building is too small then surely the projections are wrong regarding the figures quoted for the WP Tavern and who could know how many people would attend. Also why did last years failed application quote a daily attendance of 200 for a smaller building than this? Too many facts do not add up I am afraid, just wished people would be honest from the start. Therefore I will be appealing against the planning application based on insufficient evidence.

Andrew said...

I genuinely do not argued the toss with them over the amount of traffic it will generate, but yet you say you'd be happy with a McDonalds?! Have you been on London road at basically any point during the week or especially weekend lunchtimes?!

Hypocrite of the week!

Ranger84 said...

I think someone missed the humour..... Moron. Anyway 54 cars don't turn up at mcdonalds and all leave at the same time just like 54 people don't leave the pub at the same time but they will all be leaving here at the same time! That's my issue not the amount of extra traffic but the amount of traffic leaving at same time!!!

Andrew said...

You've answered your own question, 140 attendees can at the very most bring 140 cars (which is a ridiculous exaggeration of the real number of cars that will arrive). How many cars do you think pass The Avenue in all directions per hour, particularly at rush hour, every day??? It will be a drop in the ocean.

As for parking, 52 spaces is quite a lot - Stone Place has 196, and copes (just) with all the people coming to the whole of Worcester Park each day, again, how many people do you think that equates to?!

Whatever the building is used for it will generate extra traffic (particularly a pub or a hotel, Premier Inn or some such establishment), so if everyone is against that natural conclusion then the building may as we'll be demolished.

Stand-Up-Guy said...

This is exactly what I have been saying and then getting criticism from their people who are posting on this site.

It is a joke to think they will ONLY use their car park and not park on nearby local streets. 135+ people is just unthinkable! They will bring severe traffic issues to the area at ALL times and yes a lot of us do commute after 6:30pm and well into the evening.

If they have been under-playing the attendance figures then what other negative aspects are they going to unleash on the community once they get their way.

Once they move in they will do as they please and we will not be able to do anything about it. They do not represent the WP community so I personally do not want them here as our focal point....

This will be a big mistake for WP and one which will be deeply rooted in regret in the future...

Jenny said...

I don't know how many cars pass The Avenue and Malden road/Central road every day - what I do know is that any extra's at the times stated by the centre will have an adverse impact. Lets ask the Council to conduct an traffic impact assessment then perhaps we can scrutinise the facts and figures properly.

Jenny said...

Well if enough people complain and hassle their local councillors I'm sure we can accomplish this - remember local elections soon and Politicians are fickle.

A said...

Actually you're the moron, some uneducated lump that has probably just turned up having already made his/her mind up before you have walked in. The fact you continually address the BUYERS or maybe try the word PROPOSERS with THEY this and THEY that.
The community centre is not going to be a rock concert where 54 cars leave all at once when the show is over. If you bothered asking the question you'd have known the cars leave at different times. As for tea and coffee it's called courtesy which you obviously didn't deserve.
Subway eatery places also have security as does NCP car parks does that also make you feel uncomfortable????

Hypocrite of the week you most definitely are !!!!!

guest D said...

True, but remember that the planning officers have to consider facts and only facts as presented in the application. Councillors can take into account local feeling but they can't use that as a reason for overturning an application.

If they do the planning inspectorate will most likely grant the application on appeal and the councillors can be personally liable for costs, unless the councillors can justify their reasons. They may also have to be answerable to their national parties if the whole situation becomes national.

Remember that in Sutton with the Green Lane Mosque, that the planners threw out the application as the site had no parking, this is not true of this site. So the Councillors were rubber stamping the rejection.

Also remember that Ismali's have votes and the councillors have to court those votes as well.

But it would be a very good question to put to all candidates that come knocking on your door.

And I'm sure that it will be one WPB will be putting to the candidates in both the Sutton and Kingston parts of this town.

Ranger84 said...

Uneducated I am not and as for a lump now who's making their mind up? Sorry how should I address them? The Shia Ismaili every time I wanted to say something? Then I wouldn't Have been able to have written all that I did to wind you up so much! And I did ask the question and was told they wouldn't leave all at same time as some people would stay and have dinner at the restaurant-I'm not sure what they meant by that-however I don't believe they won't all leave at same time. You only have to look at the Catholic Church by the pub near the local sainsburys to see the traffic it causes when they all leave after something. What the hell has a subway eatery got to do with? I've never seen eluding metal gates across a subway or an NCP car park. I've attended many consultations in the local area and been involved in campaigns for various developments and never been offered tea and coffee before. I therefore do not call it courtesy but more of a trying to win people over. Luckily I didn't have my eyes closed!!!

WP Born and Bred said...

Once again, the stereotyping of anyone who raises concerns or objections. Even if Ranger84 was 'uneducated' does that make his objection or personal opinion any less relevant?

Jenny said...

I have no knowledge of the campaign against the Green Lane Mosque so can't comment - however the momentum is gaining strength and I for one plus many local residents will be making our voices heard.

Strength in numbers as they say.

A said...

Actually I know the difference between stereotyping and genuine concern. The people inside could have offered world peace but the likes of yourself and others amongst have already made there mind up and walked into the place with a sealed deal.
And actually yes education does make a difference. The wiser person will actually go in there with a view to listen to what they have to say not to just have a little rant about everything that they say or do! Objection is not a problem but for the right reasons

Keith said...

Andrew is a strange name for a Muslim i must say

A said...

Even a cleaner works in a city hardly boast worthy. So apart from extra traffic during 7pm what exactly is your objection, oh I forgot the potential buyers have placed security gates to protect their property or possibly because they have made it clear it would be a members community centre and the gates would put some form of control over non members entering.

keith said...

I worked for years in the high street back in the 90`s and it was a great community spirit then Waitrose came along,but that happened all over the country and times were going to change but are locals to blame for the fact the high street is now full of cheap asian wine/convenience stores each one the same as the one a few doors down ? Or is it just a foothold for them to stay in the country as the majority of them are in no way profitable

keith said...

A certain community that up until now don`t exist in this community ,it won`t be a community centre if it was we could all trot down there

guest wp said...

The only signs of hypocrisy this weekend has been the shambolic consultation by the SW ISMAILI community. I too was there today and i do not believe they have been very honest at all.I will be contacting my councillor and i will also be appealing any application put forward.

Ranger84 said...

Yawn you are boring me now. I must go and polish my hoover ready for work on Monday.

keith said...

What happened to that large Halal shop at the top of the high street ? i assume they got bad news re green lane and got out quick

Johnno said...

Very brave words my friend, lets see if you up at the forthcoming appeal for Green Lane Mk2. Speak then.

David said...

I spoke to a Muslim colleague at work, she said that these kind of premises in addition to prayers are also constantly used for the special occasions, weddings etc. Place is big enough to accommodate for all kind of gatherings and will be used non-stop, at all kinds
of time. The entire application is just a cover story and once they are in , there will not be no way out, causing chaos on the roads around us.

Big Al said...

Thankfully Rangerfully 84 most of us agree with you, not that pompus uneducated idiot Andrew.

Gary said...

I will also be contacting my councillor and appealing any planning application good call guest. As for Andrew............

AB said...

I also went along to the consultation today. Certainly, a great deal of effort went into the event and everyone involved was very happy to offer to sell the idea. However, when it came to the tough questions, there wasn't a convincing answer available and as a substitute, I was told about the impressive volunteer work undertaken by the Ismaili community.

Volunteer work is certainly to be commended, but that didn't answer my questions convincingly. IN some cases, I already knew the answers to some of my questions and the answers I was given today did match the ones I knew to be true. Also, in some cases, asking exactly the same question of two different representatives resulted in two very different answers.

I did not argue with the answers I was given - today was not the time. I will wait for the planning application to appear and consider what action to take then. If the application follows the same path as was taken today, I will be objecting and highlighting some very unconvincing aspects of the plan.

AB said...

PS OH has just pointed out the missing word 'NOT'! "I already knew the answers to some of my questions and the answers I was given today did NOT match the ones I knew to be true.

Andy c said...

A warning to the residents of Worcester Park, it is no good turning a blind eye to the problems at Worcester Park Tavern.
The consultation meeting served no purpose with the answers given regarding number of
Worshippers attending.
As the owners are applying for a D1 class of usage how long will it remain as a community centre as we were led to believe.
On a previous occasion an application was made to Kingston Council regarding premises in Tolworth a figure of appox 600 was quoted as attendance to the council.
Now these figures have been greatly reduced to appease the local residents.
Again be warned, do we want the traffic problems of The Morden centre when police need to be in attendance because of the serious traffic problems.
Worcester Park is notorious for it's traffic congestion all times of the day and night none more so than the junction at the Avenue outside of the Worcester Park Tavern
A question for Kingston council, have you that much land for housing that you also will turn a blind eye to the needs of the young people of Worcester Park desperately needing somewhere to live.
Finally to the assembly of Islamic volunteers in attendance yesterday please don't threanten the residents into believing the property could be turned into a Mc Donalds.

Smoke Screen? said...

I agree that we need to make a concerted effort to ensure that this Centre does not get the green light. I also attended the Consultation and despite the slick presentation I felt that it was just a smoke screen. I asked if all would be welcome to the “Community” Centre and was told that in theory yes but you would have to be invited via a letter. The fast food chain “threat” was also mentioned! I ascertained that the two brothers who purchased the property still own it so also have other options to explore. Do we know if any of our local Councillors actually attended these Consultations?

guest D said...

If they are applying for D1, that would be a Mosque not a Community centre that would be D2.

A change of use from A4 (drinking establishment) to A5 Fast food outlet probably would go through very easily, or to A3 supermarket would probably go through very easily. As adjacent classes can often be swapped, with only regard to building and change of external appearence changes.

guest said...

I went to listen and ask questions, and must admit it was all very friendly and welcoming by some really genuine 'volunteers' but after awhile it felt as if i was in a 'Time share sales room'. lots of answers but questions not really being answered. and the attitude of one gentleman when asked why there so few leaflets distributed was "well you are here aren't you ?" it had to be pointed out that many residents didn't have access to the internet (WP Blog) and many of us only got the Kingston Guardian on Friday evening.
Aside from this, numbers of members/usage and costs being expended just didn't add up. A Youth Club with only 15/17 members on a Saturday night !! I also just can't see the wider community being encouraged to join in and participate in the activities of the Centre.
But the biggest problem would be the increase in traffic/congestion to/from the car park at the traffic lights,at the junction of Malden Road/The Avenue.and once users have discovered the problems they will then park in the side roads around Manor Drive etc.

Rose said...

I also attended the consultation yesterday and fully agree that the slick presentation was no more than a smoke screen with the answers I was given.
Further to my attendance, being greeted with beaming smiles and the offer of refreshments, when I queried the volume of people attending and the amount of extra traffic the tone suddenly changed into a more unacceptable nature.
In fairness I went to this consultation with my mind already made up that under no circumstances am I in agreement with what is being suggested and listening to what was said has left me feeling deeply depressed, I also agree with a previous comment, starter homes needed for Worcester Park residents.

Avenue Resident said...

'Time share sales room'... your description is spot on!

The volunteers were all certainly incredibly hospitable and charming, but just like Time Share, the whole point was that beneath the smiles and the kindly gestures, they were at work and they were there to sell something: they were there to stop the community objecting to the forthcoming planning application.

It was a very slick operation, which I am sure will have sufficiently impressed some residents, but when faced with the question, "When is the Planning Application going to be submitted?" or "When can I see the Planning Application?", I could not get this answer from any of them, including the attending consultant from JTS Partnership. The veneer was very attractive, but easily rubbed off.

Clarence said...

Lower Green Gardens Resident - by the Station

I am greatly concerned about this change of use, which as yet has not been submitted to the Council. When it is it will be under a section 106, unless the local express enough concerns regarding the Ismailli Centre. The Tavern is located in Old Malden Ward the Councillor within that ward is Mr. David Fraser.

Please note on the plans there are 2 meeting rooms available with another room unlabled
Having spoken to one of the Consultants present it became apparent that the seating capacity is plus of 340 people (within the labeled) and a further 140 in the the unlabeled room , however bear in mind the site is subject to change of use, which once granted, the internal layout can be changed (possibly without planning) with building approval.

I consider the Consultation exercise undertaken within the past 2 days to be an Intelligence gathering exercise, so urge you not to submit the consultation document you were so thoughtfully provided with, remember the adage "prewarned is prearmed"

KENNETH said...

Worcester Park Tavern Islamic Centre (Funday centre for all)

I counted four security guards~ (islamic volunteer members) strategically placed around the perimeter of the Worcester Park Tavern
Told intended to be 2 sets of steel gates to be erected for security reasons.
NICE, VERY NICE. Security guards plus steel gates, 24/7.



Daisy said...

Security guards and high security steel gates.
Invitation by letter needed to use the faculties, thanks but no thanks, I would rather take my chances with a visit to the Russian oil rigs on Greenpeace boat.

Clarence said...

Take a small scale map I suggest a-z series M25 main road London.

Ismaili Centre in Hounslow and Croydon, the one in Sheen is/will be closed.
The previous application for a Ismaili Centre in Hook was refused.

The catchment area for this (yet to be submitted application) is not a replacement for the Ssheen Centre, this is expansion for a growing Ismaili
population with the location (Worcester Park) at the most opportunist location in the entire London SW Region.
Areas such as New Malden, Cheam, Epsom, Tolworth, Hook, Ewell, Kingston, Weybridge, Cobham (where do I stop). Attendance at the proposed Centre will be determined by, factors, such as transport links,
Road infrastructure etc.
The next Ismaili Centre is Guildford.
One thing I am very concerned about is 54 parking spaces, which I consider to be totally inadequate, as is the ability of local area Parkin unable to absorb the demands placed upon it.

Benefits to the local community, one noticeable fact about the presentations put forward by the team present was not one of them was local, and I very much doubt if any of them resides within 10 miles of Worcester Park

guest y said...

Totally agree, problem is too many people are just presuming this will not happen. We should all be contacting the councillor regarding this and also starting a petition to show how strongly we feel about this.

steve said...

Hi I wrote to the old malden councillor re traffic and parking and that there would be more people than they say. He agreed as he also went to the consultation and expressed similar concerns. Go to google type in write to your councillor and actually write to them. Don't just express your concerns on a blog do something. Someone below asked about councillors opinions well don't ask on a blog write to them it takes 10 mins tops.

Guest said...

Yes I agree we need to address our reservations with the councillors. Therefore, can someone blog the contact details so that we all can get in touch with them.

guest D said...



Chloe said...

The Tavern comes within the Old Malden Ward who's Councillors are:

Michael Amsom - Conservative

David Fraser - Conservative

Kate Stinton - Conservative

They do a drop-in session at Old Malden Library; Church Road, Worcester Park, Surrey, KT4 7RD on the First Saturday of every month 10am-12. The next one will be on the 2nd November. Contact details can be found under Old Malden Ward

Avneue Guest said...

One of the things that defeated the Green Lane application was the common agreement between both the major political parties in the Borough of Sutton.

I hope Kingston's elected councillors similarly unite to support the views and interests of their constituents who elected them, above any other loyalties.

I write this having just read the Sutton Guardian report that Chessington Cllr. Shiraz Mirza "has spoken out in defence of the centre".

Maybe Cllr. Mirza needs to be reminded:
1. That the first application for the centre (near Tolworth), by the same applicant, was rejected by Kingston Council.
2. That the centre he allegedly has spoken out in defence of has yet to produce a planning application for the new site at all - let alone one that is acceptable to Kingston Planning.
3. That the Ismaili community make up a tiny minority of his constituents and that most of those seeking to establish the centre are not just external to Chessington, but external to LBK.

Guest said...

Have written to Mr Fraser Old Malden Councillor as follows:
We went to the recent consultation regarding the Ismaili community centre and spoke to two representatives and were given very conflicting answers. We are in Old Malden adjacent to the WP Tavern and for the past few years after the alterations to WP Station our Road has been full of commuter traffic from 6 a.m. until 6 p.m and later every week day. If this Community Centre goes ahead our Road will also be full of cars at weekends when our families wish to visit and cannot find a parking place. Firstly we were told the Tavern would only be used evenings 7.30 - 9.30 pm but then it came to light it would be used all day also for other activities i.e. weddings, festivals and several clubs. The 54 parking places would be totally inadequate for parking at these times. The traffic and parking is horrendous lunchtimes in Manor Drive when people have to pick their children up from the Nursery, there is nowhere for them to park. We know already that the Shiraz building in Manor Park is used for prayer and we hear on a Friday at 1 p.m. that there are security guards on the gates stopping local residents going into the park because the Car Park is full. Also the residents in that vicinity are fed up with the parking in their roads. We pay the highest council tax in this area and things are going from bad to worse. Please support the local residents to ban this idea for the Tavern as we are most unhappy about it. In fact a lot of residents feel intimidated with what they have seen so far i.e. Limousines with blacked out windows and security guards on the gates, not what we want in Old Malden/Worcester Park. Thank you for listening and please support the local residents.

Gues123 said...

I have also contacted Mr David Fraser regarding the community centre. I am still amazed at the amount of people that still do not know about this proposal. We all need to spread the word and contact the councillors the more people the better.

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

Correction: All the local Conservatives united with local residents, gathering signatures, writing letters and keeping local residents informed to help defeat the Green Lane proposal. The Liberal Democrats tried to keep quiet on the whole issue with only a single Lib Dem braking ranks to speak against it at the planning meetings. Another Lib Dem has declared on his blog ( that permission should have been granted for the Green Lane Mosque (while misrepresenting this blog and also the Sutton Guardian) and other local Lib Dems reportedly told people that it probably would be granted.

I know that Kingston Conservatives are fully aware of the situation and will be entirely with their residents on this issue. I spoke with Cllr David Fraser at the Consultation and also saw some of the other local Conservatives too.

Guest said...

Dear Guest

Thank you for sharing your comments about residents living in Worcester Park paying high taxes etc.

However, i would like to share something with you perhaps you would like to consider. I attended the meeting on Friday to find out more about the community and also about the residents of Worcester park that attended.

Firstly did you know that a lot of the High paying council taxes living in Worcester Park are actually part of the ismaili`s that have been residing in Worcester park area for over 30 years. Not only have they invested in Worcester Park but also have created jobs in the area. If you looked outside your window you will see that a lot of businesses like Accountants, Nursing Homes around you are actually owned and run by Ismailis or perhaps like one of the activist I meet on Friday actually uses car parking space provided by an Ismaili (How funny ). Also a lot of customers on Worcester High Street visiting companies like Hair Dressers are Ismaili Women. The reason you have not recognized is because they have blended in the Worcester Park and British society. Ismaili women do not wear burqa`s, hijabs. Secondly perhaps you have not recognized them is because as a lot of people on this blog are so blinkered that if they knew the Community a little bit better they would have figured out the people they meet of Friday and Saturday and googled some of them they would have found out that the community does not only contribute to Worcester Park Society but to the Britain as well.

From what i understand amongst the community of no more then 8000-9000 thousand in the UK they have more OBE and MBE recipients that have contributed more to the British Culture and Society

On the other side of the activist, I would like the councilor to question these people who are fighting the cause of stopping how committed are they to Worcester Park. Are they investing in Worcester Park. Are the just OK to make noises and run when things get though. What have they contributed to the British Society, have they made any changes to our British Nation or are they trying just to make the change for themselves

Worcester Park Wake Up!!!

Guest said...

Dear Guest

When I said wake up, is exactly what I meant..If you have have read my blog, I never said that you said anything about the Ismaili Citizens, but was trying to explain to someone like you to understand more about the people and the global communities that live in Worcester Park and how everyone contributes to the Economy or Worcester Park. Like yourself a lot of people on this blog have got on the traffic band Wagoon. If you were clever enough you have realized that Worcester Park is also moving with time. You would have also worked out that the building is not big enough to hold any more people at any time other then when the pub on a packed night or people visiting the Harvester on a Sunday Afternoon or Visiting the Korean Gathering or the Church on Sunday.

You talk too much about the traffic. If a Macdonald was to come, have you ever considered what the traffic would be between 3-8pm when these stores are at the busiest time. Like i said if you look outside the box you will work all this out for yourself and I will not have to explain to you.

Also if you are clever you would have worked out your figures and facts.

Should a Macdonald or Sainsbury`s come in will you guarantee that it will only be for the residents of Worcester Park and no other people around the borough can visit it as otherwise it would create a traffic issue. COME ON WAKE UP!! this is 21st century

You mention that the Center would only benefit the Ismailis, please comment if that was the case why was the meeting that was to be held at the Church which supports everyone cancelled the venue as the church did not want to see to be getting involved.(Sutton Guardian) So in this case who did it benefit!!. I suppose not all the Residents of Worcester Park that includes the different faiths and community residents that actually support harmony in a community...

BTW, you did not comment about one of your prominent activist who benefits from from one member of this society. I suppose that would not account to anything as far as your activist benefits. Double Standards!!!!

Before you become an activist to save Worcester Park, I would actually look at the facts and figures and understand more about Worcester Park and the people that live in the borough.

Guest said...

Guest. I am probably more of an authority on Worcester Park than you having lived here all my life. I am not one to insult people or threaten that the building could be a McDonalds or Sainsburys. This would also be opposed by Worcester Parkers. It would be nice to help our young people who wish to stay in Worcester Park and have some housing with parking. I am very proud of our Worcester Park and Worcester Parkers and what we have achieved. Maybe you should find out more about Worcester Parkers and the very serious problems with the parking issue. This is our main concern.

guest kinross said...

We will see how many " ismailis" live in Worcester Park when the petitions for and against begin. Remember Green Lane? 4000 against.....3 for. Contacted my local councillor already expressing my concerns. I am awake but I think you are still dreaming.....

Duke said...

No one is questioning the contribution of the Ismaili community or their level of education both of which have nothing to do with what we are actually discussing here: "Traffic/Parking" issues not religious/racial hatred issues.

Your community is also rapidly expanding/growing here in the UK do you really think this is an appropriate location of your prayer/community hall?

A better site is needed for your community with much larger parking space.
Unfortunately 54 spaces will just not cut it in this instance.

You must consider how this will inconvenience and affect the people living in close proximity and also locally.

No one is insulting you or your community on a personal level.

colin townshend said...

Worcester park needs a good supermarket. Waitrose is to dear for the average w/p resident. lived in w/p for 55yrs.

Howard said...

I believe that Lidl have bought the Organ Inn in Ewell so pub sites are possibilities for the discounters. Aldi is supposed to be opening near there too, but perhaps WP would be considered too close,(and to New Malden).

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