Friday, 20 September 2013

One Way To Upset Windsor Road Residents

Residents close to the Stone Place car park exit in Windsor road are finding that the new one way system is not such a good idea after all. Not only has the amount of traffic in Windsor Road increased to the point that residents are complaining of being blocked from exiting their driveways but also the noise of the daily early morning parade of delivery trucks is apparently starting to take its toll on people’s sanity.

A number of readers have commented about this on July’s Stone Place post. One reader summed up the noise by saying:
“to anyone fortunate enough to be out of earshot, the sound of a loaded HGV hitting speed ramps in Stone Place, in the early hours of the morning, sounds like the vehicles are exploding landmines.”
One local resident who has been keeping a log of the noise told the blog that they have been woken up as early as a quarter past 5 in the morning by trucks.

It’s not only Waitrose delivery trucks that have to come through. Delivery lorries and waste disposal trucks are needed to service Waitrose, Iceland, Pizza Express and all the other businesses there (plus the Library). To quote the same reader:
“And don't forget that Iceland delivery vehicles are now having to delivery exclusively out of hours because the newly reduced and restricted area around Iceland now prevents it at any other time. I asked at Iceland how they are managing to get around the situation. The response was along the lines of "completely impractical, but it's a case of having to make it work - or close down!"
The Good News

Stewart Mackay getting a signature
There is a glimmer of hope however for these blighted residents. The one-way system is under a trial period until November. So it can be altered if the powers that be (Sutton Council) decide it isn’t working. Local Conservatives have set up a petition to try to help convince them to look at it again. Stewart Mackay (pictured here) who has been out in Windsor Road gathering signatures told the blog:
“When these people moved here they weren’t expecting Windsor Road to be suddenly jammed with cars like this or to be woken up every morning from 5am by delivery trucks. It’s been a poorly thought through plan that has had a negative effect on local residents and I hope the council will see sense and reverse the decision.”
You can now also sign the petition on the internet here if you don’t manage to sign the paper one going around.

Update (25th September)

One local resident has been logging the noise being made by the lorries in Yoga Way and has kindly sent them to me. Here are the results:

Date Time Comments
04/09/2013 05:45 Wake-up unidentified lorry
  06:07 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:22 Rubbish lorry to Stone Place
  06:30 Biffa to Pizza Express
 
05/09/2013 05:45 Wake-up unidentified lorry Iceland lorry in Stone Place
  06:11 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:30 Monitoring ended
 
06/09/2013 05:17 Wake-up unidentified lorry Iceland lorry in Stone Place at 5:34am
  06:00 Lorry leaving Yoga Way, unidentified
  06:16 Biffa to Pizza Express
  06:38 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:45 Monitoring ended
 
07/09/2013 06:10 Wake-up unidentified lorry Iceland lorry in Stone Place at 6:15am
  06:25 Kingsmill lorry exits Yoga Way
  06:40 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters Yoga Way
  06:50 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), exits Yoga Way
  07:00 Monitoring ended
 
08/09/2013 06:57 Kingsmill lorry on Yoga Way
 
09/09/2013 06:18 Wake-up unidentified lorry Iceland lorry in Stone Place
  06:25 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:43 "Initial" lorry on Yoga Way
  06:45 Iceland lorry exits on Yoga Way
 
10/09/2013 05:50 Kingsmill lorry on Yoga Way Iceland lorry in Stone Place
  06:15 "Veolia" (?) lorry on Yoga Way (hard to distinguish logo)
  06:22 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
 
11/09/2013 05:27 Wake-up unidentifiable white lorry Note sunrises on this day at 6:29am. Iceland lorry in carpark (photo)
  05:32 Rubbish lorry enters Yoga Way to turn-around by Lotus apartment and immediately exit (reverse warning audible)
  06:02 Kingsmill lorry on Yoga Way
  06:11 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:47 Iceland lorry exits on Yoga Way
 
12/09/2013 05:37 Wake-up unidentified lorry exiting Stone Place
  05:50 Kingsmill lorry on Yoga Way
  05:57 Rubbish lorry to Stone Place Photo
  06:38 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters on Yoga Way
  06:50 Iceland lorry exits on Yoga Way
  06:53 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), leaves on Yoga Way
 
13/09/2013 06:16 "ADM" (?) lorry on Yoga Way (hard to distinguish logo)
  06:37 White lorry on Yoga Way
  06:52 Biffa on Yoga Way
 
16/09/2013 06:34 Iceland lorry exits on Yoga Way
  06:35 Warbutons lorry (serves Iceland and Waitrose), enters, will also exit via Yoga Way
  06:46 Kingsmill lorry on Yoga Way


65 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

I also urge all residents effected to send their complaints or comments into environmentalhealth@sutton.gov.uk. This kind of noise pollution is totally and wholly unacceptable.

Sarah said...

Lets face it Sutton Council are not exactly famed for their good ideas especially where traffic is concerned

guest said...

For pedestrians it is a major improvement, not having to dodge bi-directional traffic in Stone Place. I very much hope Sutton do not back down.
Rather too many motorists treat the car park as if it were a highway and drive too fast. It's 'private' land, owned by Sutton Council, so pedestrians have equal right-of-way.
Is Mr. Consv Mackay a councillor?

guest said...

The top picture is highly misleading - it shows traffic queuing in Windsor Road, waiting to enter Central Road. There are no vehicles waiting to leave Yoga Way. Therefore it has nothing to do with the one-way restriction in Stone Place. It could equally have been used to suggest that there isn't much traffic exiting that way, which would be equally misleading.

The second picture could easily have been taken before the restriction came in.

As for "... the sound of a loaded HGV hitting speed ramps in Stone Place ..." - well Stone Place is a fair distance from Windsor Road (and I don't recall any speed ramps in Stone Place anyway ), but, if "Yoga Way" is meant, then the Waitrose artics invariably enter and leave that way. If people have an argument it should be presented accurately and objectively.

Polluted insomniac, Windsor Rd said...

If you want "accurately and objectively", get up at 5am and come and join the local residents to hear loaded HGVs begin bouncing their way down the car park hill and rev their way up it. Also listen to the clatter and high pitched squeals of metal rubbing on metal, coming from the HGVs, as their loads creak and vibrate, on the steep gradient. It isn't the fault of traders - it was Sutton Council who stopped Iceland's ability to take deliveries in opening hours and forced this metal and mechanical dawn chorus onto local families.


Do stick around for the commuter gridlock, now the traffic that used the car park to get onto Central Road can't - so it's ALL backed up throughout Windsor Road, bringing traffic from Hampton Road, Moreton Road and Donnington Road to a standstill.
Nice to hear that you think the welfare of pedestrians is important! So try, if you can, to spare a thought for all the local pedestrians, breathing in the plumes of exhaust fumes, belching from the lines of concentrated, static exhaust pipes, as they walk along these roads.


Treat you lungs to what the local children experience every day, breathing in this Council created, toxic assault course, as the make their way to Cheam Common Infants and Cheam Common Junior Schools. And ponder for a moment the impact on road safety as the kids try to cross the now extra busy Balmoral Road, now littered with extra traffic, trying to find a way around the Council created blockage in Windsor Road.


Sutton Council were told accurately, objectively and in words of one syllable that these changes would do far more harm than good - but they simply refused to listen. The knowledge and experience of local traders who have been in business for decades and local residents who have lived most of their lives here were dismissed by a woman from Sutton Council who eventually conceded she was an office girl, who had never run a business in her life and neither lived in Worcester Park, nor lived anywhere in the London Borough of Sutton!


In the interests of accuracy and objectivity, kindly do three things for the residents paying the price for Sutton Council's errors of judgment.
1. Have the decency to ditch the ID 'guest' and replace it with "Sutton Council Stooge".
2. Have the decency and backbone to admit this arrangement was a mistake that makes the quality of life worse for residents, traders, commuters and local employees - just as they said it would!
3. Rather than waste even more money on wacky sculpture murals that nobody wants silly money spent on - put the car park back to how it was!... Two-way, to maximise traffic flow at both entrances and reinstate the road, so HGVs can make deliveries at sensible times, rather than wake the whole neighbourhood up at dawn!

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

Hello Guest. Let me answer your question. I am not a Councillor but do serve on the Nonsuch Conservative "Action Team" Our objectives are to listen to residents issues and concerns, which we do every week on the doorstep, we advise and help on these campaigns.


As far as this campaign goes the new decision has impacted the residents of Windsor Road in a detrimental way. The evidence and witness statements I have seen support this.

guest D said...

Stewart,


It's clear that there is a problem being caused to the residents of Windsor road by this one way scheme. But part of its intentions are to stop the Stone Place car park being used as a 'Rat Run'. If the scheme was reversed what measures would you propose to prevent this dangerous practice?

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

I would like to mention that the liberals in general are "Anti-Car" have pursued anti car polices for years. Slowly restricting visitor parking whilst increasing double yellow lines and other parking restrictions building new homes without adequate parking and without increasing road infrastructure.

guest said...

So, when you operate out of area you drop "Nonsuch" as a middle name and use "Consv" instead? Either way it's just plain daft!

guest said...

I shall have to seriously consider voting LibDem then, although UKIP - who are the New Tories - are increasingly appealing.

If "increasing road infrastructure" means building more roads then you clearly don't understand the problem. Building more roads simply moves congestion from one place to another and, briefly encourages more people to drive.

In the long term, road-pricing - which is not the same as congestion charging - is likely to be the only way of forcing the spreading of car journeys over a wider period of time. We pay for other resources, and road capacity is just that, a resource.

guest said...

Thank you for the address. I shall be e-mailing them to confirm how much safer Stone Place has become for pedestrians. I urge anyone who agrees to e-mail Environmental Health, and the Planning Department.

guest D said...

It would probably be better making your views known to the Traffic and Transport Division https://www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=89, as these are the people who deal with traffic congestion and safety issues. Environmental health will be concerned about noise but I doubt that trumps road safety. Though consideration could be given to removing the speed humps as other councils have done where they cause a noise nuisance.


As regards congestion, that is a finite resource, only so many vehicles can fit through the railway bridge pinch point, and if cars use Stone Place as rat run, it means that they are 'queue jumping' cars that are coming down from the main road, Cheam Common Road.

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

No problems at all guest. I would be interested to know how many pedestrians have been injured in Stone Place Car Park.

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

This claim, has been repeated so often that many people believe it without question. However, the opposite is true cities that have built knew roads in the last 2 decades have seen less congestion growth. However, keeping to Worcester Park. I doubt very much that knew roads will be built and non are being proposed. I do think though that the traffic flow the through Central road the number of traffic lights maybe they need re-phasing not forgetting crossings and bus lanes that lead up to the junction with the A3 all this needs a cross border study and a joined up policy with Kingston Council and tfl. I don't see much joined up thinking at present.

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

hi guest, thanks for noticing but I changed my middle name from Nonsuch because no-one could tell which party I am affiliated to. I didn't want to anything underhanded like sign in and comment on posts anonymously...


One last thing Windsor Road is not out of area for me.

Stewart Consv Mackay said...

Hi Guest D

How dangerous is turning in to Stone Place, do we know the fatalities or injures in doing this? I have to admit I don't but would like to see them. Also I think that cars turning into stone place (a legal manoeuvre) is the least of Worcester parks traffic concerns, if I am frank. I think we should be looking at root causes. I think a cross border study involving the mayor and tfl study should be conducted to find ways ease the congestion in Central Road and Worcester park as whole.

Alex said...

We have gone FROM a build up of traffic within the car park, some drivers using the car park as a cut through and store deliveries during shop opening times, TO restricting access to the busy car park, forcing store deliveries to start at 5am - waking the whole neighbourhood, and creating new and longer traffic queues on the surrounding residential streets.
Yes, using the car park as a 15 mph 'rat run' is unwelcome, but those same drivers now using Balmoral Road as an alternative 30mph 'rat run' whilst kids are crossing the road to get to their school is a dramatically worse and more dangerous situation.


We cannot simply wait for an RTA child fatality on the Hampton/Balmoral/Kingsmead junction, for Sutton Council to concede that the changes they have forced on us are far worse and far more dangerous than before.

John Bevan said...

The only change to HGV traffic involves an Iceland vehicle once a day coming up the hill of Yoga Way early in the morning, it comes in as it used to through Stone Place. The Waitrose traffic was already there because of the old height restrictors. The dustcarts come during the day. Your prosaic description of the situation is worthy of a prize for exaggeration comparable with some of the scaremongering that appears in the Daily Mail.

The lungs of the children/local residents argument is a dead duck - the pollution/traffic queues were always there further down the High Street. But now its in your back yard you are scribing. If you are really concerned at pollution and children go and harass parents bringing their kids to schools in 4x4s and such like, school drop off zones are toxic no go zones and RTA hotspots.

The problem is not the scheme (which I think is a vast improvement from a pedestrian safety point of view) but the selfish car drivers.

Resident not a contractor said...

My first thought was that either Mr. Bevan is completely unfamiliar with recent and hugely detrimental, Council driven changes in this area. Or that he must live in a completely soundproof building and when outside it, he must keep his eyes, ears and lungs tightly shut.


I also noted Mr. Bevan's praise for Sutton Council's ditching of residents' and traders' interests, in favour of investing in local public works - that the local public didn't want and still doesn't want. It would seem, utilising the Outer London Fund to subsidise public works related companies (rumour has it, an exclusively closed and exclusively overpriced shop) floats his boat.

Then I noticed his other thread, containing his unreserved praise for what is a rather simple construction of 'a flower bed'. Alongside his highlighting of what he apparently believes are underappreciated planning skills, required to successfully evenly distribute plants in a rectangle of earth, I noted Mr. Bevan's apparent familiarity with civil engineering terms. Hmmm.

Tired resident! said...

The disbaraging remarks aimed at Windsor Road residents' honest experience since the introduction of the way-one system, leaves me slightly bewildered. 
As a resident myself, yes we are being woken up daily from around 5am by lorries, which on average number six between 5am and 7am-times termed as 'out of hours'. Yes we now experience queues of traffic as avoidance of the rat-run through Stone Place has only redirected it by bottlenecking the run to Windsor, Balmoral, Lynwood Roads-where people live, instead of queuing in a car-park disturbing none.
If the rationale for the one-way system is to improve pedestrian safety, which I praise, then a suggested resolution to suit ALL could be a traffic light or zebra- crossing adjacent to the Iceland entrance to Stone Place with the old two-way system. This would then protect the pedestrian by providing a safe crossing, as well as, encouraging the use of the only continuous pavement that accesses Waitrose up to Windsor Road. Would this not suit everyone, pedestrians, traders and local residents?
I prefer to suggest solutions considering the needs of ALL, rather than claiming unfounded untruths etc.
Those who do not believe the increased traffic now on Windsor and numerous early morning deliveries, feel free to sit on the newly installed bench at the corner of Windsor Road between 5am to 9am, weekends etc and see for yourself. 
Do remember Windsor Road etc are residential streets, that existed before Stone Place or Yoga Way. The residents did not buy their properties on the equivalent of a high street, so why should they be told to endure such a circumstance?

Local mum on foot said...

As a mother with a toddler living in Worcester Park, I would prefer money invested in pedestrian safety with the barriers that used to line Central Road being re-installed, rather than a small extra pavement that still forces those on foot to cross to the original pavement to go to Waitrose. Does any one know if this is on the future plans? I hope so.
If such a small piece of pavement is causing so much disruption to the immediate surrounding residents, where its benefits are not entirely necessary, then I hope concerns over the new one-way system are carefully reviewed in November.

Guest said...

It was not so much the crossing of the entrance to Stone Place as the foul experience of negotiating a narrow footpath alongside Stone Place, often partially obstructed by some stinking delivery truck. On the opposite side of Stone Place what might have been use as a footpath was too narrow, so had bricks laid in corrugated style to discourage pedestrians.
Whatever else may be under discussion, it is self- evident that, for pedestrians, the use of Stone Place has been considerably improved.

guest said...

Would you want barriers alongside all roads, and river banks, or just where some yesterday planner thought they would be of benefit?
As a responsible mother you know that your toddler has to be kept under constant supervision, which applies quite regardless of whether there are barriers or not.

Guest said...

Amen to all that.

dazza said...

i saw two vehicles, one van and one car drive out through the no entry way this morning. Someone is going to have a head on collision soon. They obviously knew what they were doing too!

Early morning HGV call said...

For those that care to remember, (obviously guest doesn't care to), the barriers in the High street were originally installed after a very serious accident in the High Street - which barriers would have prevented.

Back In those days, planners actually got to plan and spend the money where it was actually needed...
...as opposed to wallpapering Victoria House (temporarily), fitting benches the wrong way around and thinking up surreal schemes to screw up the traffic flow so badly that deliveries have to start at 5am to avoid getting stuck in the car park.

guest D said...

I truly sympathise with your problems, I had the same issues when living in France, with delivery lorries to the hotel next door at 5:00 every morning, so I know it's no joke.



Though your suggestion (traffic lights) is an excellent one, I would doubt that Sutton's legal team would let the planners go for it. In doing so they would be admitting that it is not a car park, but a road and would therefore have to upgrade it, to have the better protection for pedestrians, to avoid being sued on any accident. This was one of the reasons given for closing Robin Hood Gate to Richmond Park, as the route down to Roehampton Gate had become a shortcut. In this case though the locals benefitted from quieter roads.

Also it would have little effect on traffic in Windsor Road as the phasing would almost certainly be such that very few cars got out at a time.

I did however find a very innovative solution to this problem http://www.redditchstandard.co.uk/2013/07/09/news-Drivers-face-toll-charge-for-shortcut-76622.html along with some horror films on UTube of near accidents.

Guest said...

John Bevan is a liberal or council plant!

Guest said...

Plant!

Walking faster than cars said...

I suggest you take a look at the photos on the Worcester Park blog's facebook page, showing gridlocked traffic not just along Windsor Road, but in the same shot, from the car park entrance, down the hill, to as far as the eye can see...
Then again, if you're one of those Council buffoons, with judgement so lacking as to implement this fiasco, you can just go on calling any clear evidence of failure and shockingly poor judgement "misleading".

Tired resident! said...

Catch-22 anyone?
As soon as I read this comment, it reminded me of Heller's Yossarian.
The one-way system was partly introduced to make a safe environment for pedestrians. However, Guest explains that to make the walk to Stone Place truly safe for pedestrians by adding lights or a crossing the council would have to admit the road was...well a road, and take on paper responsibility for the safety for the pedestrian. So in fact the one-way system creates a false safe environment. Well if that's not an example of Catch-22's paradoxical philosophy of arbitrary rules and absurd bureaucracy, I don't know what is! 
So let's not fool the pedestrian into believing the council is truly them safer by introducing a one-way system. Let's go back to the system that worked for the pedestrian, trader and resident alike. Why fix what ain't broke...unless someone can inform me of the tragedies that have occurred due to the two-way system (I hope none) and equally consider carefully and reassure us all that pedestrians and cyclists negotiating queuing bi-directional HGVs and increased traffic on Windsor Road, a residential road, are safe too.

Facts not fiction said...

Guest writes: "The top picture is highly misleading - it shows traffic queuing in
Windsor Road, waiting to enter Central Road. There are no vehicles waiting to
leave Yoga Way. Therefore it has nothing to do with the one-way restriction in
Stone Place."
Logic replies: The one-way system bottlenecks traffic on to Windsor Road, as the flow
cannot divide and exit by Iceland. So it has everything to do with the one-way
system. Such long queues started the day the one-way system was imposed, direct
causality.

Guest writes: "The second picture could easily have been taken before the restriction
came in."
Logic replies: Well I suppose yes, the Windsor Road residents could be making up
untruths, not quite sure why they would. But that's by-the-by. Back to logic.
If ALL the Stone Place car park traffic now must exit via Windsor Road, there
must be an increase in traffic, this will directly cause longer queues. I
wonder if the council did a pre-one-way system survey, measuring flow. And will
now do a similar one, giving us the facts of numbers of cars now using a
residential road.

John Bevan writes: "The only change to HGV traffic involves an Iceland vehicle once a
day coming up the hill of Yoga Way early in the morning, it comes in as it used
to through Stone Place. The Waitrose traffic was already there because of the
old height restrictors. The dustcarts come during the day. Your prosaic
description of the situation is worthy of a prize for exaggeration comparable
with some of the scaremongering that appears in the Daily Mail."

A factual account by a Windsor Road resident: No! As you will see from the record of
delivery lorries, several lorries service Iceland and the car park, all large,
noisy and arrive before 7am. These rarely used Windsor Road before the one-way system was introduced. Dust carts come throughout the day, including
early mornings pre-7am and nights, sometimes around midnight.
Once a Windsor Road resident is now woken at approx. 5:30am by the first HGV delivery (a rarity before the one-way system introduction), they are kept awake by several more. Then the lorries stop around 7:30am, when a long queue of humming motors until 8:30 queue to exit Windsor Road into Central Road, as they can no longer
exit via Stone Place/Iceland they now back-up down Windsor Road and up Hampton
Road. Relentless disturbance continues, the high street is awake and ALL cars
from Stone Place now stream on to Windsor Road. Waitrose now closes at 9pm, so
that continues until then. Then we have the people in cars visiting Pizza
Express leaving up until 11pm. On numerous occasions lorries that used to turn
in Stone Place at night, now do so entering AND exiting Windsor Road, revving
up the hill of Yoga Way instead of exiting down by Iceland. For example, the
Greggs delivery lorry does this around midnight.

No exaggeration here, I wish I was. Not Daily Mail, just simple fact. Such an
account makes sense; the one-way system now forces ALL traffic (delivery
lorries, dust carts, cars) using Stone Place on to Windsor Road, a residential road.



P.S. I was woken today (Saturday) at 5:50am by a delivery lorry on Yoga Way, I hope you had a lie in!

guest D said...

I did enjoy your reference to Catch 22, it immediately made me think of ex PFC First Class Wintergreen unspringing rythms in council reports.

But I think there are also more lessons than can be drawn from the various themes within that book. M&M enterprises bought ALL the Eygptian cotton, and to dispose of it Milo tried everything even chocolate coated cotton in the canteen. We are in the same situation, over the years councils have been car friendly, they have bought all the cars that people want and it is now getting to the point where no more can be taken.

The are various approches that can be taken the Consevatives would have us believe that a Laissez Faire approach be more car friendly and the problem will cure itself, presumably when total gridlock occurs. As milo would say 'You know, that might be the answer — to act boastfully about something we ought to be ashamed of. That's a trick that never seems to fail.'



The Greens on the other hand say we need to introduce radical schemes like the Paris and Hong Kong drive by registration number or return to Ken's Fares Fair policy when leader of the GLC.



I don't claim to know the solution I only know that tinkering won't help.

You say why fix what aint broke, but I would say the traffic trying to get throough the railway bridge of a morning shows it is broke and I would bet that roads that have gained better flowing traffic wouldn't want a return.

As I say I do sympathise and I see you in Catch 22 terms as Snowden dying slowly and in agony, because M&M enterprises have taken all the Morphine leaving a note to say 'What's good for M & M Enterprises will be good for the country'

Lastly I would say you are fighting two battles 1) The early morning noise. 2) Increased traffic flows. Sun Tzu would advise in this situation to fight the battles separately and decide which you most want to win and concentrate on that. A politician will advise fight them together as there is greater poitical capital to be gained in either winning or losing both.

Time for change said...

It really is very simple: the one way system doesn't work for anyone, period: drivers, shoppers, traders, commuters, pedestrians or residents: the narrowed car park exit is now receiving HGVs at dawn and the whole area is gridlocked, because the traffic flow is broken and backs up across the local road network.


There is no Catch 22, no silver lining and certainly no benefit for pedestrians, unless they carry their own oxygen supply! The entire car park project is a complete foul up - because those who did it either can't or won't do their jobs.


The solution is common sense:
(1) The Outer London Fund team who refused to listen to anyone except themselves and insisted they knew better, to ADMIT they got this BADLY WRONG.
(2). They immediately reinstate what worked before (including re-widen the road by Iceland ASAP, to enable HGV deliveries at sensible times).
(3) MOST IMPORTANT: The Outer London Fund Team actually LISTEN to residents and traders, before frittering aware another fortune on bulldozing their next disaster project on Worcester Park (and North Cheam).

Nichu said...

I go to Waitrose several times a week on foot. Each time I have been, several cars ignored the no entry sign and exited onto Central Road. If another car came in the other direction, they simply pulled over onto the flat pavement. I didn't like the corrugated pavement before, but now it feels even more dangerous.

I have sympathy with the Windsor Road residents. Green Lane residents have had to put up with massive lorries driving to the Hamptons at speed for the past few years - not pleasant, especially when they sit there with their engines running outside your house.

I doubt there's an ideal solution as the volume of cars is so high whichever way they go, but so far this trial seems dangerous and it's not being enforced.

Brought to a standstill said...

It's not just at the Central Road exit that road signs are being ignored. It's happening at the exit to Windsor Road too. Here there is always a line of traffic queuing to get out, from Central Rd, down Windsor, into the car park entrance and down the hill, into the car park . . . and some drivers are just driving around and jumping the queue.

I am seeing drivers in the queue give up, pull onto the wrong side of the road, and drive passed the library on the right-hand side of the road, passing the island on their left and turn right, out of the car park, presumably trying to find another way to get onto Central Road.

In Wednesday, there was a screech of brakes and the sounds of a horns as one impatient driver tried this manoeuvre, racing up the hill, on the wrong side of the road, only to suddenly come face to face (and bumper to bumper) with another car turning into the car park - neither could get around the other, leaving both lanes blocked, into and out of the car park.

It's clearly just not working - anyone can see that. And desperate, though less than clever attempts to get around the problem are making it worse still. Sutton Council have got this badly wrong. It seems they simply spent the money on an experiment, when actually they only needed to spend time actually thinking their rashly assembled experiment through, which would have saved a lot of money.

Replacing the corrugated surface certainly helped, but as things are, the rest of the expense was a complete waste, which is now costing the community in other ways, every day.


Who is actually in charge of this "Outer London Fund" and is actually in a position to change this mess?

Andrew said...

In the long term, bearing in mind the increase in traffic over the past 10 years which will undeniably continue to increase rapidly over the next 10, the only actual REAL solution is a by-pass of some kind.

guest D said...

Fact, Car ownership increases by 3% a year (RAC Foundation).
Fac,t Car Ownership in WP is 1.8 per household (Census), the national average is just over 1.
Fact, WP has one route to the west and one only, so there is a fixed and finite capacity.
Fact, Car size is getting larger and occupancy rates staying the same so fewer people are getting through the pinch point at a time.
Fact, the pinch point is on a political boundary



A by pass of some kind is A solution, but I doubt it's real. For one to be built, Kingston would have to accept destruction of property on its side of the boundary and the export of WP's traffic problems, neither desirable. Also Railtrack would have to agree to a tunnel or bridge being built.



An alternative would be (as previously suggested in this Blog) to return to the 1930 plans to link Green Lane to Lower Morden roundabout. But again this would need the cooperation of Merton and though they wouldn't lose housing they would lose part of the cemetery and gain a traffic issue.


The only realistic solutions are to decrease demand by Central Government encouraging home working or increase people density by encouraging Public Transport.


Lastly, the effects of tiny change in traffic flows being so large indicates that the WP traffic system is actually very close to catastrophic failure, which may well occur in the next two or three years if nothing is done.

Brought to a standstill said...

In case it's not fully appreciated or understood, or has got buried under statistics, the central, undeniably FACT is that the current catastrophic gridlocking of all the roads around the car park is neither a natural phenomena, nor something that has increased over time, but is the immediate and manufactured result of the interference by representatives of Sutton Council.
At some point, they will have to concede that they hurriedly spent money on something they did not understand, did think through and throughout, they refused to listen to either the advice or the warnings from residents and traders.

Collectively, people who have lived and worked here for years, (often decades) and have far more knowledge of the area than even the most expensive consultants that Sutton Council have thrown money at. [At the drop of a hat, we can even spot benches round the wrong way].
Perhaps the most apt statistic is this:
The Sutton Outer London Fund Equation:
£2 million OLF fund
+ Incompetence
+ Arrogance
+ Recklessness
= Missed opportunity & total failure.

guest D said...

That is not fact it is your opinion, please provide evidence to your assertion.

Guest said...

No, the only long-term solution is road pricing. Too big a subject to explain here, but the roads have to be treated as a resource. If people need (which often means 'want') to travel at the same time as others then charging a premium will make many think of an alternative - the most obvious being walking the children to school.

Guest said...

As with so much that is posted to this blog, not just this thread, it is highly subjective and self-opinionated tosh.

guest said...

You mean two vehicles meeting head-on in a single-width road actually colliding? Then at least one of them shouldn't be on the roads at all!

Brought to a standstill said...

Take a good look at the transcripts and on-line PDFs from the Outer London Fund meetings and first note that despite a number of members the local community being present, how remarkably little input any of them have been allowed.

The theme throughout is members of Sutton Council announcing what the are going to implement, with at best only a vague idea how and why, or at the very best announcing that the community will be allowed to recommend which variation of Sutton Council's foregone conclusion the dislike least.

I know several of the names on the list who were present and I have asked THEM for their opinions: their views on what's going on are not dissimilar, from disbelief at the resistance to common sense by members of Sutton Council to the frankly, unprintable frustrations at the waste of money that continues to go on.

Also take a walk along Windsor Road between 8am and 9am. What you will see, hear and breathe was all communicated as alarmed warnings to Sutton Council's team, (who said 'Tosh!' as well - and promptly sabotaged the car park). The result is exactly as everyone who lives and works here warned it would be.

Brought to a standstill said...

It's a community blog, for the community - it seems you're looking for Sutton Council's own in-house PR website.

guest D said...

You made an assertion that had been no increase in traffic over an unidentified time, so that means you are counting from after the time the Hamptons was built or that the Hamptons added no traffic to the system.


I could waste my time demolishing your assertions one by one, but I prefer to use a simple model to show what is wrong with WP traffic.


Take a two litre drink bottle, take off the bottom, place over the sink drain. Put a funnel in the top, pour water in slowly, it'll go through no problem, slowly increase the flow in, at some point the funnel wil start to fill. We have passed that point. Increase the flow, at some point the funnel will over flow, that is a catastrophic failure and I feel (can't prove it, as I don't have the numbers) that we are approaching that point.


All that is not down to the Outer London Fund, Sutton Council or even the Mayor of London, if you want to blame someone look to Central Governments over the last 40 years, who have ignored the issue.


Yes, the OLF's actions have precipitated the issue, just as 19th Century attempts to straighten the Leaning Tower of Pisa made it lean faster, but they didn't cause it to lean in the first place.


It is the fundamental problem needs fixing not the symptoms.

guest D said...

I agree Road Pricing is part of the optimal solution, but I would add the Carrot of cheaper Public Transport.

Guest said...

I wonder how many people who are now complaining about this scheme actually went to the 'Pop Up ' shop in Central Road and expressed an opinion/view to the staff who were collating views on the plans put forward.
i did and must admit that most of what i put forward was ignored . ie Micro Gardens, No Defined Kerbs, moving the the Pedestrian Crossing outside Costas to the junction of Stone Place/Long Fellow Road.and replace the Traffic Lights at Green Lane with a rounabout. The idea of one way is a good idea but should have defined kerbs, however you cannot allow for IDIOT drivers who can't read road signs or know the Highway Code.
i think the powers that be had a plan and were determined to go ahead with it. if this is the case i just cannot see 'them' spending anymore money rectifying it.
Just remember 22 May 2014 is Local Election Day and elect the councillors you want.

Brought to a standstill said...

We could all sick our heads in the sand and blame drivers for creating the chaos that Sutton Council has created, but that would only disguise the problem and incompetence.

As Dazza suggests, it's clear that drivers are utterly frustrated with this gridlock and someone's going to get seriously hurt soon. [And presumably you'll protest that there were absolutely no indications that any such accident would happen].

Brought to a standstill said...

I'm sure Sutton Council and in particular, Sutton's Outer London Fund disaster squad appreciate your undying loyalty. However, you trivial attempts to blame anyone else but Sutton Council for Sutton Council's sabotage of the car park, resulting in dawn deliveries and gridlock are as misguided as the sabotage itself. Assertion: Sutton Council got this badly wrong, despite the warnings and now badly need to put it right.
Rather than follow Sutton Council's lead and attempt to construct a fictional conclusion, based on contrived evidence, and dismiss anything that doesn't fit as 'tosh', have a good, close read of what this OLF team are pushing out and then make enquiries with people who have actually attended these meetings. I did and the conclusion is that this team of people are fulfilling roles that they have little or no competence to undertake - and their assertions, that they know better is leading to chaotic disasters whenever, they touch something.

Resident said...

Just to say I certainly went to the Pop Up shop and left feeling an unchangeable agenda was already set. I seriously questioned the wisdom of spending (an amount that staff either did not know or would not divulge) on Victoria House, since it was investing money in a privately owned building, that the private owners had a legal duty to maintain in good order. In response, I was told feedback from residents was "very supportive". [I know nobody who supported it, but lots who were against it]. But on reflection, it seems the so called "feedback" should have been unanimously favourable, since whilst I was at the pop-up shop, clearly only favourable opinions were being recorded.

Rob said...

So not only do parents have to pay through the nose for childcare if they both work, in order to work the hours that are required when you have children at school we would have to pay a fortune too!


Great work - maybe we can all just claim benefits and stay at home, then the traffic issue would take care of itself?


And how many people can honestly say they can turn up to work when they WANT - rather than when their bosses/clients say they have to?

Guest said...

If you really think that anyone disagreeing with your self-opinionated ranting and raving is an apologist for LBS then you are seriously neurotic. Keep at it.

guest said...

Some barriers, of course, are necessary, but nowhere near the lengths that there used to be alongside Central Road. A station platform, a river bank or any road can be potentially dangerous but we don't expect them all to have barriers. Mind you, after decades of being unfenced and thick with algae some fool decided that the pond in Shadbolt Park, after it had been cleaned up, needed to be fenced all round - utterly absurd.

guest D said...

Don't worry it would take at least 10 years to introduce as Cars would have to have a Vehicle ID fitted, probably RFID. The paranoia sites claim that they have been fitted to new cars for the last three years, but they claim lots of things.


Governments would use the Odd and Even number plates bans first, like Paris and Hong Kong, particularly if someone like the EU can be blamed, for example to avoid the air pollution fines that the EU are going to impose on London.


That is the biggest obstacle really, no political party wants to be the one to do it.


Incidentally, how do you feel about other services which are charged on the basis of demand, like Electricity and Phone usage?

guest said...

One accident in how long?
And what were the circumstances? You will surely know, having such a good memory.
Vehicle drove up on the pavement? That could happen anywhere.
Pedestrian stepped out into the road? ditto.
As with so many arguments on this blog you show a breathtaking lack of basic logic.

Guest said...

Add to that the simple fact that the marginal cost of motoring is far too low.

Rob said...

I'm sorry, but that is like comparing apples with oranges. Electricity and my phone service are things provided to me which are produced by a third party. I pay the third party for providing me with those products.


The road is an open bit of land, which incidentally I already pay for the maintenance of in my various taxes. To charge me for using this is like charging me for using my garden path! The tarmac laid down the middle of Central Road is not a service which is provided to me in any way shape or form.


I don't believe that pollution is even the issue, even the most naive amongst us can see that internal combustion engines are a Victorian relic soon to be replaced with electric or hydrogen. The pollution will resolve itself, the traffic will not.


Toll roads are great if there is an alternative - but when there isn't then it is just purely a further tax on people trying to make a living. Why should the more well off be allowed to use Central Road, when those who cannot afford it are barred?


Charging for the use of the road is merely delaying the inevitable, and plans need to be put into place as to a long term solution.

guest D said...

Yes I'll agree it is a poor comparison, so lets use a Tarmac availability resource based charging system.


In 1955 the first Parking Meter was introduced in London in Grovenor Square, before that you could park anywhere within reason. 10 years later, I had a pocket money job as a meter feeder in a Turkish Bath as they had spread throughout Central London.


I'm sure that Stone Place was once free to park as where most other Council car parks, some still are. Most residential streets where free to park in 20 years ago, but the CPZ cancer spread.


So I would put it to you to charge you for moving along the tarmac is no different to charging you to stay still on that tarmac?


We are in a Capitalist society and the reaction of that society is to use the laws of supply pricing and demand to control demand, we could adopt the Stalinist model and divide according to need, i.e. the party has the greatest need, so they come first.


And lastly Pollution is a Red Herring but it can be used to shift the blame to the EU.

Resident said...

Interesting. I'm far from convinced that the cause of this local, badly botched/impractical one-way system can be traced to the nationwide introduction of the parking meter and/or capitalism.

But further to your statements above, with regard to the actual topic and car park under discussion:-

Can you tell us when the Stone Place car park ceased to be free to park?
And how much does it currently cost to use it? (Roughly).
And out of interest, when was the last time you used it and how much did it cost then?

guest D said...

Have you never noticed the Pay and Display units scattered around?


I can't tell you when the council made it charged but that is not relevant.


I last used it a month ago and as Blue Badge holder paid nothing.


But this has nothing to do with Road Charging as a measure to control road usage. I have only used parking charges as an indication of the way pricing controls have been used to control car usage.

Rob said...

The lack of free or long term parking has affected businesses over the years - to charge people for driving through, and therefore to, Worcester Park will only serve to accelerate the decline.


If an alternative route was provided to people who just want to pass through to get to the A3 or Kingston, New Madlen etc etc, then the local traffic in and around the high street would be manageable.

Resident said...

Firstly, you're completely wrong about "the council made it charged". The car park is COMPLETELY FREE for 2 hours, which as everyone else in KT4 knows is a key factor in people shopping in Worcester Park, rather than drive to a superstore. It's therefore a key foundation in sustaining the remaining local independent traders as well as any other trader. Councillor Burstow (from Cheam Village) even highlighted to the free car park, during the recent Mosque planning application meeting. By contrast, you are notably out of touch.

Secondly, you use this car park once a month and presumably you are smart enough to avoid the 8am-9am gridlock. This topic is about the experiences of those whose daily lives are being adversely affected by the newly created one-way route in the car park, and blighted by 5am onwards HGVs.

Plainly, it was not sufficiently researched. Plainly is not working. Plainly someone without the relevant knowledge, experience or even a grip of the basic facts has very little to contribute to such a discussion.

guest D said...

Please try and keep up, I was pointing out that a form of road charging already exists, I was not referring to the issues of Worcester Park specifically but an approach to the capacity issues.


Your solution to the clear capacity issues seems to be put it back the way it was and that will fix everything, it might delay matters but it won't fix it.

guest D said...

Yes I completely agree, but we have to live in the real world, that will not happen. Ewell and or Kingston are not going to solve Sutton's problems when it is at cost to them.


If your new route goes through houses that is around £10,000,000 a mile at WP typical house prices, without the cost of building the road.


At some point it has to cross the railway line, Railtrack would not allow a level crossing, so it is bridge or tunnel at I don't know how many millions.


Add 4-10 years of planning inquiries and it will be too late anyway, even if you could get Sutton to even consider funding it.


It could happen but only if Epsom and Ewell were to join in reduce the horror that is Kingston Road, but it would still take too long.

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