Tuesday, 14 August 2012

Mosque Planning Consultation Extended


Sutton Council has extended the consultation period on plans to convert the vacant Bank Chambers in Green Lane, Worcester Park, into a mosque following high levels of public interest in the proposal.

The public consultation had been due to end last Friday, but has been extended by a week to give local residents more opportunity to make their representations about proposals for the mosque.

Those wishing to comment, support or object formally to the planning application now have until Friday 17th August to do so online via Sutton Council's planning application portal.

172 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Andrew said...

The capacity is 140 people. If we are presume this is true, let's do some sums....


I imagine that on average, the same with any place of worship, people tend to travel in groups, be it families or friends. If the mosque ran at capacity for every session, that's 140 people per session. If we say that on average people travel in 3's, and ALL by car, then that's 47 extra cars.


Not everyone will travel by car. So maybe we can say 30 extra cars will be in the vicinity AT MOST during each session.


Can Worcester Park really not cope with 30 extra cars? If not, then we are in the shite with or without a mosque.

Guest with eyes said...

Presumably you are accepting 140 shown in the planning application as accurate? [That's the same planning application that states the difference between 4 people using a building once a day (the former use) and 140 people using a building, 5 times a day is apparently zero].


Since the application shows the VAST MAJORITY of supporters are from outside KT4 and and outside the LBS, it highly likely that the VAST MAJORITY will travel by car - with no parking places at the end of the journey, so you can ditch your 30 hypothetical vehicles for starters.


What would the impact of 50, 100 or 140 illegally parked vehicles at the Green Lane junction, five times a day? ...None, I suppose?


What about the 184 new homes in the Hamptons? That's another 184 vehicles using Green Lane and parking in Worcester Park, before the word go... no impact, again?


The idea of Planning Laws is to prevent Worcester Park becoming Worcester (illegal car) Park.


If you have read the planning application and you genuinely think it makes sense and the numbers add up, you are in shite, with or without a mosque.

Andrew said...

The impact would be a massively increased revenue for the council through car parking tickets or pick-up charges from a local pound. Illegally parked cars are just that - illegal - and will be dealt with. How many times have you parked illegally over and over again when you are getting hit with a £50/£100 fine each time? - or do you make a habit out of banging your head repeatedly against a brick wall?


My point is, whether it's a mosque, church, supermarket, coffee shop, hairdressers, whatever...are we really saying that NO derelict/unused premises in Worcester Park are allowed to be re-opened under any guise, because the impact on traffic would be bad?


Like I have opined before - if that is the case, Worcester Park is dead.

WhoWantsACrapLoft? said...

Yes there will be an impact, but do you really feel the mosque will be full to capacity at every prayer session? I'd rather see all the buildings in WP in use and have a vibrant community rather than a load of people moaning and derelict buildings everywhere which is the way WP is heading.

Andrew said...

Absolutely

Guest with eyes said...

If you re-read the sorry saga about this mosque on this
blog, you’ll note there was someone optimistic called Andrew, previously concluding that
there wasn’t going to be a mosque, even though there were advertisements for it
- right in front of his eyes!





Now we have an optimistic Andrew inventing numbers and concluding a
nonsense planning application with obviously invalid claims and data that
doesn’t add up is realistic – and the evidence is right in front of his eyes!





I’m guessing it’s the same Andrew…

axlrocky said...

Sources close to the proposed mosque developers reveal that they have just acquired the Worcester pub and plan to turn it into a super mosque - with room for a million visitors.

Mosque World will be a unique visitor attraction with merchandise such as kids prayer mats and lady burkha's available in a range of colours and designs.

"Mickey Mosque" the attraction's mascot will greet visitors and direct them to Green Lane where ample parking will be allowed.

Attraction Designer, Mustaph Bin Jokin, stated " It was the tolerance and togetherness that made us feel so welcome in Worcester Park, this will put WP on the map!"

Liberal Democrat MP and Westminster Playboy Paul Burstow states " Mosque World will bring jobs and prosperity to WP and I have once again listened to the people and delivered what they want - does anyone remember when I single handedly saved Kingston Hospital? and solved WP traffic issues?, im great - pass the champers Davey"

David said...

The operators of the mosque could only guess at the number of likely attendees at each of the five meetings a day.

What if more than 140 people turn up, possibly a lot more?

Would the excess number be accomodated or turned away?

If the latter, would they then conduct their prayers out on the public footpath?

That is what Abu Hamza did at Finsbury Park mosque, conducted prayer meetings outside on the public highway. The police just stood and watched - did nothing to clear the highway.

BenjyP said...

Classic! Good Work Axl, had me creasing up.

Richard jones said...

Sorry, we just do not want a mosque in Worcester park!!!! Forget traffic, the unsuitability of the building for lots of people..........the area is not suited to a mosque. It is residential around there and there will be noise as mosques are not 9-5.....this really is ridiculous and how the planning application wasn't thrown out before it was even submitted is beyond us, it is the height of irresponsibility by Sutton and MUST BE STOPPED

Richard jones said...

Might be funny if it wasn't so scary that this could happen,,,,,,this does need to be tken seriously I am afraid, it really does

Stevenhall said...

Dont think you will be happy about the capacity when there Re 4am prayers.........if you see Merton mosque you will know now many cars there are.........

Guest with eyes said...

This Planning Application is clearly "Mickey Mosque" - it's not going to be taken seriously. It'll be rejected, they'll be an appeal, it'll be rejected again - another submission, rejection, appeal etc etc...


In the meantime, as soon as it gets its first 'no for the following, comprehensive list of reasons', there's immediately going to be a few predictable and energetic accusations that applying the same planning laws, yellow lines, traffic lights, rights of access etc etc equally to everyone is racist, like some Ali G or Little Britain spoof...


Cue residents' rolling eyes and disbelief - and a sense of embarrassment among many of those who signed up to this planning application. I wonder how many of them actually read it? My guess is even at this early stage, at least some are now regretting not reading it thoroughly before blindly endorsing something that so obviously lacks integrity.

Jeff said...

What happens when the minaret extension goes up in 2 years time? Seriously. It's not just the traffic chaos it would cause to the WHOLE of Worcester Park, it would begin to change the character of a British suburban town into something Arabic and alien. It's happened to New Malden, it's happened to Tooting, soon there will be nowhere British left. (Sorry if the use of the B word offends any PCers).
That enormous Mosque at Morden is an example. I know the Muslim sect that runs Morden Mosque is different to the mainstream Sunnis and Shiites but they should talk and get together and SHARE that enormous mosque. Just as some CofE churches share with Korean Christians.
Is it too late to save this little bit of England?

D chi said...

Please everyone take 2 mins to fill in the sutton council form,this is a very very stupid idea to place a mosque or any other place for gathering of people

Guest with eyes said...

A transport policy that welcomes hundreds of vehicles with nowhere to park and then tries to cure the problem by issuing fines? Be honest, you haven't actually thought through this application, have you?



And if Waitrose car park, Green Lane and Central Road are
packed with parked cars owned by visitors to the mosque (as is indicated by the planning application), nobody else is
going to get a look in, which means nobody can park near the shops.






A downward spiral of customers means a downward spiral of
traders - 'Worcester Park is dead' ... but there's a mosque
open and now there's dwindling competition for parking and lots of empty units for expansion, so that's all's well!

axlrocky said...

yes it is too late - WP voted Lib Dem, you reap what you sow

Guest with eyes said...

I disagree that "it's too late". The planning application is a complete turkey. The planning department knows that, as do our councillors and our MP (who let's recall, campaigned against the Hamptons 180+ home extension for similar reasons to the objections to this mosque).


For Sutton Council to approve this absurd application (displaying 200 dubious, largely out of town signatures - i.e. who won't even be voting in this constituency) would show that the planning laws have been ditched, in favour of a purely political agenda. It will be political suicide
I'm guessing very few of the 650(ish) and rising enquiries with Sutton Planning (shown on-line) phoned to offer their support! So raise your objections and submit them on-line, preventing Sutton Councillors from declaring they are unaware of any traffic and parking issues!

axlrocky said...

I lost all faith in the lib dems when ....oh wait, I never had any

Guest with eyes said...

Of we are going to end up renaming the town "Gridlock Park" I suspect you'll feel better if you did actually actually submit a rejection - there's lots of good evidence on this blog.

Don't just blog, do something said...

Folks, Sutton Council has extended the time for your support or objections until Friday 17th August. There are lots of valid issues and many are already written on this blog, so if you're too busy to write one from scratch, you can even do most of the donkey work simply by copying some of the points on this website.


This is your opportunity to formally make your opinion count and make your voice heard ... or be ignored.


Leaving it to everybody else is effectively showing Sutton Council and Sutton Councillors that you're entirely happy with the planning application in its current format - so if not, it's up to you to do something about it and prevent you being written out of a say in local government.


Judging by the petition attached to the planning application, I expect many of those using the portal to express their support for this planning application are arriving in rapid succession, using exactly the same words, with exactly the same spelling mistakes! Time will tell...

Maria Siggery said...

I am pleased with a mosque coming to worcester park this will be a good thing as the nearest mosque is either kingston or sutton .

Read the planning application said...

Will you be pleased when the nearest parking space for Worcester Park residents is in Kingston or Sutton?...

Appendix 3 - petition of 230 signatures, mostly out of town, extending up to 5km away.Appendix C - most travel by car (from 55% - 76% depending on prayer time).Parking survey - 6.1.2 identifies 231 unrestricted parking places between 09:30 -16:30Parking accumulation - graph 6.5 shows, even without a mosque, existing near capacity parking between 09:30 and 16:30 .

How convenient is a mosque you can't park anywhere near?

Guest_who_read_the_application said...

Maria, wouldn't it be more convenient if a mosque was located in New Malden, where the petitioners live and presumably they won't require a car to get there or a parking place?

allenn007 said...

Isn't it up to the mosque-users to worry about where they park, and not the rest of us?

There is no parking anywhere in that vicinity and they will soon find that out and make alternative arrangements such as train or bus..Ok if they park at Waitrose then they will probably use some of the shops on the way and increase business for shop owners. Or are people saying they would rather not have extra business for W.Park?

Moreover the size of that building is small so unlikely to attract or accommodate many visitors ready to 'swamp' W.Park.

faithless said...

I wonder if the Islamic community here caould take a leaf out of this book....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19289226

Native Worcester Parker said...

Absolutely agree....good point about increased shop usage by visitors also. Think some people on here are getting carried away thinking 100% of WP residents are dead set against this, when in reality that isn't the case.


As for the loss of 'Britishness' - what is Britishness. Or more precisely, was was Britishness 100, 200, 300 or 400 years ago? Britishness changes with time. You can't just pick some 'glory years' from the 1960s and wish that that was what it would be like forever.


To me, Britishness is being tolerant, diverse, forward thinking, self effacing, humorous, - leading the world on lots of things as we have done for centuries. Britishness to me doesn't just mean cup 'o tea, white skin and a stinking pub.


This kind of backward thinking is just archaic, boring and sad.

Realist said...

you are very innocnet if you think they will make alternative arrangements. What is will mean is the poor local residents who OWN houses there won't be able to park their cars because mosque users from other towns are parking there - GET REAL!

Richard Jones said...

so you live NEAR the proposed mosque do you, to have to come home to find all the cars and noise, the vast majority of people do not want this mosque for obvious reasons, noise, traffic, sometimes they pray outside mosques because there are too many people......it is a disaster waiting to happen and just not fair on the vast majority of Worcester Park residents. It is nothing to do with tolerancy it is a closed communitiy that the vast majority of WP residents would not be allowed to enter - call that fair - I do not! IT HAS TO BE STOPPED before the whole town is ruined. In fact I do think WP needs tidying up full stop actually and am glad to see the W P tavern go as it was scruffy beyond belief. People drop rubbish everything things like that.....but once someone does it people follow.....

simonwatson said...

oh use the local shops will they, at the 4.00am prayers!!!!!! People making these kind of comments really do not have any idea of what it will do, go and visit Merton when the Mosque is in operation to see, in North London the mosque was full so they were out on the pavement, and it says capacity of 140 which seems a lot for that building when I thought a small accountancy firm was opposed to .....who is to say more won't come, but from where, outside worcester park......so have it where they come from, this really does not make sense and it is such such a shame it is even being considered

allenn007 said...

That might have something to do with Green Lane's proximity (convenience) to the train station where people leave their cars there all day which has gone on for years. Those that live on Green Lane already have the convenience of living a minute from the station but they want parking as well, sorry not possible nowadays to live near a station and have unrestricted parking.
And as most have admitted on here, if there is no parking where will they park?? Yellow lines, red routes??

Seems like the 'parking' argument just doesn't stack up, sorry.

allenn007 said...

Sadly, their little piece of England they wish to save is a derelict unused office building...

steven hall said...

but surely people should be able to park outside or nearby their OWN house - your comment is ridiculous totaly absurd!

Another Use said...

Why don't Sutton Council invest some of their regeneration monies for North Cheam and Worcester Park and buy it back and make it a community centre for ALL the community instead of ploughing all their funds into Sutton Town Centre with dangerous seating and wooden animals, what bright spark thought that one up? Probably the same one who will approve this Application.

Realism said...

There are some incredibly naive comments here, but fortunately the planning laws are pretty robust and the planning application (if you actually bother to read it) is barking.


I look forward to attending a public meeting on this application (there's bound to be one), where the local lunatics will no doubt perform and their lack of knowledge and logical capacity will be publicly revealed.

Jeff said...

Native Worcester Parker says that to him 'Britishness' means being tolerant, diverse, self effacing and humorous. But loads of French, Germans, Italians, Americans, Arabs, Chinese and Africans share those qualities - does that make them British too?
Native Worcester Parker is one of those people who acknowledges French, Italian, Arab, Indian and Chinese culture - but doesn't recognise that a traditional British culture exists. The British alone are to be denied their identity and anyone who doesn't want to see Worcester Park become part of downtown Tehran is 'backward looking, boring and sad'.
If you don't know what being British means then you are not one of us.
You are a native of nowhere.
You belong to no country.
No people are your fellow countrymen and women.
You are stateless.
You are a citizen of No-man's Land.

Guest said...

Native Worcester Parker?
More like NAIVE Worcester Parker!



If you'd actually looked at the planning application, you'd have read in the 'transport statement', appendix D, page 2...


“The local police were observed to be helping to direct traffic at the mosque... The closure of the
car park meant that many prayer goers park on the surrounding residential
streets, with many having to walk for more than 10 minutes back to the mosque
upon finding a space in the surrounding area.”
Where is this? Morden!
Presumably your idea of 'Britishness' is about watching others make a mistake and exactly copying it? How archaic, boring and sad ... and so very naive.

Native Worcester Parker said...

I'm a citizen of the world, correct...it just so happened by pure chance I was born on this small bit of land and not the other side of the world.

I do recognise British culture, but I also recognise that the segregation of people and cultures by the use of man made Borders will come to an end, and people will eventually be part of a more global society...it's called progress. You can sit in your razorwire fenced in compound preserving your little part of it if you like.

Being insular is not the way forward.

Arguments against it because potential traffic disruption are valid, but I feel exaggerated.

The worst I've seen in morden is a couple of dozen cars parked along the main road, but that place is MASSIVE in comparison with the bank chambers!

If you've ever parked illegally in WP, you know the wardens round here are very trigger happy.

Guest said...

Sadly, if you get your way, your little piece of England is no longer going to be 'a green an pleasant land', but a land of full to capacity car parks and residential streets heaving with parked cars ... mainly from out of town!


Of course you you won't know that unless you actually read the planning application.

Guest said...

On what basis can you claim arguments are 'exaggerated'? Read THE PLANNING APPLICATION and discover they are not!

The parking and traffic chaos at Morden is much worse than you claim. Visotors are parking up to a 10 minute walk away, and that's according to 'THE PLANNING APPLICATION' ... try reading it some day, when you're stuck in gridlocked traffic around Green Lane!


You've also overlooked that the Morden mosque has capacity for 300 vehicles on-site (according to THE PLANNING APPLICATION), which (as you've conceded) has proven to be insufficient for the unexpectedly high volume of visitors. It has gridlocked streets and parking places to the point where the local police have to intervene... a disaster!


The on-site capacity for parking at Bank Chambers (according to THE PLANNING APPLICATION is precisely zero, which means the cars of every visitor have to be parked in existing car parks and residential streets, which, according to 'THE PLANNING APPLICATION' are already near capacity from 09:30 to 16:30. The Morden 'experiment' was a failure and at least that had 300 parking places, compared to zero here, where the experiment will be an even bigger failure!


If you dislike this democratic society and want to live somewhere else on the globe, where its planning laws have been ditched, in favour of insular ignorance and where this process has been labelled 'progress', why don't you try living in North Korea?

allenn007 said...

.......'The on-site capacity for parking at Bank Chambers (according to THE
PLANNING APPLICATION is precisely zero, which means the cars of every
visitor have to be parked in existing car parks and residential streets,
which, according to 'THE PLANNING APPLICATION' are already near
capacity from 09:30 to 16:30.' ....From the Planning Application

So everyone agrees that there is NO parking available in this area according to The Planning Application, and so if there is no parking it follows that there will be nowhere to park, unless people want to be issued tickets or towed away. The reason there is no parking is because of Green Lane's proximity to the train station with cars left there for the whole day by train passengers.

Tell us where they will park if there is nowhere left, and why you are so concerned about the mosque-users' intentionally getting parking tickets...?

Guest said...

The reason there is no local parking is because (as the name
implies) it is only sufficient for the needs of local residents, local
businesses and local services. If access to that facility is to be diverted to
someone else, (apparently largely from New Malden), between 04:00 and 23:00,
the local community OBVIOUSLY won’t have access to their local markets and services.





Where will all these New Malden visitors park? Well the utter
traffic and parking disaster at Morden highlighted by the PLANNING APPLICATION (which you apparently support) tells us just about ANYWHERE! I care that my
community could find the local roads inaccessible and full of parked cars
because a mosque has been placed there for the benefit of attendees from another Borough.


It’s natural to care about the community you’re part of... for most of
us.




In contrast, you don’t seem to care about local people
or local democracy or even parking tickets for those who have a mosque in an
area nowhere near where they live. You seem to want to overcome society to
pursue a different agenda and follow another direction. Perhaps you would like
to tell us where that uncaring direction will lead our community?

allenn007 said...

So you don't want people from 'another Borough' visiting W.Park. and probably spending money ...

I wonder if that means that you never go to other boroughs and park, for whatever purpose and that you never park outside of the London Borough of Sutton?? Bearing in mind that Kingston Borough starts at the railway bridge a few metres from this site it will be hard to keep people out of W.Park from Manor Drive for example, which falls into Kingston Borough despite still being in W.Park, unless you set up a barrier of some sort..LOL

So notwithstanding the parking problems that you seem to be solely concerned with, does that mean that you wouldn't mind a mosque in a less busy area of W.Park where parking was less of a problem?

David said...

The final sentence is very pertinent.

David said...

Last year, at the time of the Festival of Eid ul fitr (end of Ramadan), I observed people arriving in their hundreds at the Morden mosque. Almost all were dressed in traditional garb, so it was obvious where they were going, and all were well-behaved.
Despite being a Red Route, the police had placed cones along a considerable length of London Road.
There was a noticeable police presence - who pays for that?
Very few got off buses (80, 93, 154).
Most came from the Car Park in Morden Park.
That Car Park was nearly full and later arrivals were being re-directed (by a boy holding a notice-board) to nearby side streets.
That Car Park is about the same size as the LBS Stone Place Car Park (by Waitrose).
If I've understood correctly, the Festival of Eid takes place this week.
Those naive people who think that the proposed mosque will not have a significant and lasting impact on Worcester Park might care to take a trip to Morden as the celebrants arrive / depart during the Festival, and see for themselves what concerns the majority of objectors.

Guest said...

It's not just Ramadan. What about weddings? Quote: "During June and July there are a large number of weddings at the mosque... There were approximately 400 guests at the wedding WITH THE MAJORITY ARRIVING BY CAR"


That's from the site report for Morden mosque, from the Planning Application, Appendix D, page 2. [You know, THE Planning Application for a Worcester Park Mosque that it's supporters tell us we should believe every word of].


A mosque (apparently with 230+ attendees, largely from out of town, with existing local car parking at near capacity (as shown in the Planning Application) is an utterly and obviously nonsense notion.

Guest said...

Where is this mythical 'less busy area of W Park, where parking is less of a problem'? If you know of a spare, empty car park with 200+ spaces in Worcester Park, do tell the mosque petitioners, because their planning application has been unable to find it! [And I'm guessing you are prepared to swallow every single word within the planning application, without question].


Wherever I have visited and parked, you can be sure that it has never been with the knowledge of consciously bringing traffic and parking chaos to another community and I've certainly never considered showing my contempt for another local town's inhabitants, by planning a convoy of vehicles to descend on their community and disrupt its residents' lives, 5 times a day!


I'm sure the many mosque petitioners in New Malden would rightly take great offence to anyone causing that similar gridlock in their town, 5 times a day, between 4am and 11pm!


Just maybe their fear of traffic and parking chaos is exactly why they don't want a mosque local to them in New Malden, where they actually live? Clever move! (LOL - if you like)

Hettie said...

Can somebody please advise me as to how and when I'll be be able to find out what the outcome of this application is. A decision must be due very shortly.

Resident of KT4 said...

By last report, the volume of concern is huge: from traders and their customers relying on parking in Worcester Park, residents who desperately want to avoid gridlock and want somewhere to park near their own home and anyone who has read the planning application and realised 230 people apparently from out of town does not equate to 10-15 people within walking distance.


As a result, the planning office will consult with the community and give everyone (supported by our local councillors) the opportunity to put their view to planning officer. This isn't going to happen quickly - most likely a couple of month's time, but I'm sure we will hear where and when on the Worcester Park Blog...

Hettie said...

Thank you. I'm away from Worcester Park at the moment but will be returning in a couple of weeks. I've been following this Blog with interest, have written to both MP's and Sutton Council regarding my major concerns over this application. Hopefully the Council will see sense and will turn down what is in my opinion a ridiculous, misleading and dishonest application that can only spell disaster and chaos for W Park residents. But sadly, stranger things have happened......

David said...

What puzzles me is why the LBS Planning Department didn't simply reject the application out of hand as complete nonsense. Surely they don't have to give credence to each and every application, however poorly constructed.
Somebody being over-sensitive, I expect.

KT4 Resident said...

Absolutely, David. The planning application, (now finally out in the open), is an unrealistic, self-conflicting joke. Yet in the Guardian, the only comment by one of our illustrious councillors (Roger Roberts) was to avoid making any comment.


Good grief! It seems we have an elected representative who can't spot the obvious, comment on it, or make a decision!
Let's remember, there was not one, but two previous surreptitious attempts to establish a mosque at the same location, without the council's or residents' knowledge, both resulting in denials and on-line appeals for money being hastily deleted.
(In case our local councillors have managed to somehow forget all them, as a gentle reminder, I've uploaded them to this post).

the parkerilla said...

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse. I've just been looking at Cunnane Town Planning who put together the planning application for the owners of Bank Chambers. They operate in England and Ireland. Their speciality seems to be helping groups of gypsy caravan owners to fight eviction from illegally occupied land. They advertise in "Traveller's Times" see here http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/advert.aspx?a=20d47f3d-11e8-4b1b-a682-b70f5df2d63f . I've just had the misfortune to glance at a few threads at that forum and its not great. Now if you were the owner of Bank Chambers and wanted to try and get the people of WP on your side to allow a local mosque you'd understand that having any association with gypsy squatters, however indirect, isn't a good idea. Wouldn't you??

Guest said...

Thanks for that link. I've just been reading about their most recent magnificent successes on their latest news page ... they most recent celebrated success is dated 2007!


Looking at this planning application, it does indeed look like the brains of the outfit left in 2007!

Free Thinker said...

You must either be a racist, an evangelical christian or both!

Free Thinker said...

It makes me very sad to read many of these comments. I teach in Worcester Park and have worked with many Muslim pupils who would benefit from a mosque. Shame on you!

Sue said...

I am not against anybody having a Mosque in Worcester Park. I just don't see that there is any space in Green Lane for it. My suggestion would be on the old Gleeson site , opposite St Anthonys Hospital.
What really annoys me are the ignorant people who keep wanting everyone to worship at the Morden Mosque. How many times does it have to be explained that it would be like asking Catholics and Protastants to worship together, on a regular basis.

david wilson said...

Well the mosque near Kingston, anywhere other than Worcester Park, but why the need for SO many mosques anyway, we do not want to be taken over!!!!!

Hettie said...

Should I feel shameful for not wanting Green Lane, Central Road, other surrounding roads and their residents subjected to a further increase in the volume of traffic, additional noise and disruption up to five times a day? Should I feel shameful that I don't wish for the already filled to saturation only car park placed under greater pressure? Should I feel shameful that I am concerned that local residents will feel the need to take their custom elsewhere thus forcing local shops and business's to struggle and possibly close? To be honest I don't. This application has been submitted filled with blatant lies, false signatures and with no thought or compassion for the community it will greatly effect. Shame on them. This site is not suitable for purpose. It's as simple as that.

David said...

@disqus_Go3u8k30AZ:disqus
Explain how Muslims constitute a "race", or withdraw your objectional comment.

Nichola said...

Just had a letter from Paul Burstow after I wrote to him objecting, and a supporting letter attached from Richard Green at Sutton Council says" The council is still in the process of determining this planning application and, at this stage we are unable to confirm whether the planning application is likely to be recommended for approval or refusal. I can confirm that the concerns raised by your constituent will be thoroughly considered during the application process. The application will be decided by the Development Control Committee due to the number of letters received objecting AND in support of the proposal.


The application is likely to be taken to the committee after mid October.


I just hope that all who had a strong opinion DID write and therefore hopefully our concerns will be heard!

david said...

Sadly from what Nichola says that probably means that they are going to pass it!! If they do it will be so so wrong. When there is such objection to it in WP why would they do this - they will destroy the town, or maybe thats what they want so there will be even more empty buildings and they can build a bigger mosque!!!!!! It will be a sad sad day indeed if this application goes ahead and I pity people who live around Green Lane having their way of life destroyed with noise, more cars and late night prayers and people coming from other areas as they didn't want it in their town
Surely as well the peole trying to convert it to a mosque should see the feelings on this board and that people do not want it there

David said...

Is Mr.Burstow pro the mosque, anti or sitting-on-the-fence?
If he does nothing to stop it, I am sure the voters will remember at the next election.
Likewise all the relevant LBS councillors.
MP and councillors seem to be very quiet on the subject - I wonder why.

David said...

@f3c52e5ef3d2b471d0ef51c66c21d10c:disqus
Remember that the avowed intention is to Islamise the whole World.
A mosque in Worcester Park is just 'another brick in the wall'.

Realism said...

It seems not just Mr. Burstow, but our councillors of the same political colour are very hesitant to make any comment. There seems very little point in electing candidates to represent Sutton, only to find they dare not make a decision, dare not ask a pertinent question ... or even answer one!


What is certain is that there are a number of very basic, common sense reasons why this planning application simply doesn't add up, yet the local Liberal Democrats are absolutely petrified of admitting so.


If it is accepted (in any form), it will clearly demonstrate that the Planning Laws have given way to another, distinctly political purpose - quite literally different laws for different residents. Let's hope they can work out how divisive that would be. Failing that, hopefully they can at least work out that they only stay in post as long as their constituents allow them to.

Joanne said...

It really is atrocious that Sutton considered it in the first place, but I wonder how many of the planning committee live in Worcester park! I wish the residents association would put up more notices, sadly I don't think people truly truly realise what a mosque would do to Worcester park, and I hadn't even known about it until I saw the yellow notices, there must be a lot of people unaware still. I actually feel very frightened that there might be a mosque here

Free Thinker said...

Hi
Hettie (unregistered), thank you for your rant! Here's the thing - I don’t believe
you would deliver such a harangue if the planning application was for, let's
say, a new C of E church or prayer room.

You know I’m right!


Peace

Free Thinker said...

David, I think you protest too much!

Hettie said...

Firstly you tell me `i should feel ashamed, then of ranting and finally you accuse me of objecting to this ill conceived application on religious grounds. Why? Because my opinion happens to differ from yours? I'm sorry I thought I lived in a society where freedom of speech is permitted.
I do not know that you are right, because you are not. I object to this application purely because I strongly believe that Worcester Park, my home town will suffer if this application is approved. I emphasise my point again, the site is not fit for purpose (which in this case happens to be mosque). My one and only concern is the level of traffic and the impact this could have on the community as a whole. I would object to any change of usership of the existing building if I felt (as I do in this case) it could have a devastating effect on my chosen place to live and the people who live there. I also object and am concerned that the applicants have felt the need to lie on their application. Why would anybody need to lie in this given situation? I suspect it is to conceal the true number of extra people plus their cars this change of usership will bring to a community already struggling with the infrastructure it has.

Free Thinker said...

Hettie (unregistered), I'm not accusing you of objecting to this application on religious grounds. I'm concerned that if you scratch underneath the surface lots of the anger here is because of racism. I'm sure I don't need to explain the connection to you! There is already a marked increase in BNP literature through our doors!
I wounder if you spent as much time objecting to The Hamptons and the anti flood work taking place on Green lane. I think your time would be better spent helping the community to get say an excellent secondary school built in the area or more doctors surgeries.

David said...

It is entirely normal, in any society, to be wary of alien cultures (alien : "from elsewhere"). If you choose to call that "racism" then that is your interpretation. When such cultures promote homophobia, the repression of women and sectarianism then how can you be surprised that they are unwelcome?
You have said elsewhere on this blog that you have taught Muslim children.
Presumably you have encouraged them to think for themselves, something they will have little, if any, opportunity to do in a mosque!
Having a mosque in Worcester Park is part of the declared intention to convert the whole World to Islam. If you want to aid and abet that process that is your choice.

Free Thinker said...

I rest my case!

Hettie said...

I do not see how I could not feel accused by you of objecting to this application on religious grounds after your previous comments addressed directly to me .I quote 'I don’t believe you would deliver such a harangue if the planning application was for, let's say, a new C of E church or prayer room.You know I’m right!'
What has already happened cannot be changed. I have to accept that
whether I agree with it or not. Whether I objected to the Hamptons or
the flood work is no longer relevant or anybody else's business.This blog is running as a direct result of what could be happening in Worcester Park in the very near future. I choose to live in the now and not the past and am simply stating my views at this time regarding the future of Worcester Park roads as I see it.
I would never presume to tell you how your time would be better
spent and how I choose to spend my time is exactly that.....my choice.

Free Thinker said...

Hettie (unregistered), I see you have not address the issue about the marked increase in BNP literature through our doors!

David said...

Agreed, regarding the Gleeson's site, but it's being done on the cheap so I would imagine that that would be considerably more expensive.

I have read the whole of the Planning Application, parts of it several times over, and could find no mention of which sect the applicants belong to. Given the hundreds who attend the Morden mosque, and the 140 maximum capacity proposed here, I can only assume that the applicants belong to a minority sect (at least as far as the present-day local numbers are concerned).
Which one? How many sects are there? Will each sect require its own mosque within a convenient distance? How will the 140 maximum attendance be enforced? Will the 'call to prayer' involve loud-speakers?

David said...

Free Thinker (anonymous) : I have had no BNP literature through my door - ever!
Whilst I doubt I would find what they have to say palatable or interesting, I wouldn't rule out reading it. I apply the same tenet to various items of religious propaganda, and political bumf - read and bin.
Rather like your postings, come to think of it!

David said...

At school we were encouraged, indeed required, to consider and discuss Christianity, agnosticism, Atheism and various other religions.
Are your pupils encouraged to do that?
Would Muslim parents, let alone their Imam, allow discussion of other religions, agnosticism and Atheism? Or does the "benefit" you ascribe to their attendance at a mosque amount to indoctrination?

Hettie said...

I state once again my concern regarding this application is not on religious grounds but purely on the detrimental effect I feel it could have if approved on our roads and community as a whole. As such I refuse to be drawn into a debate regarding racism. This is not and never will be part of my agenda for objecting.

Free Thinker said...

Well I think that is shame Hettie because in the long run racism could be much more damaging to the future of Worcester Park than a bit of extra traffic!

Free Thinker said...

As I'm sure you are aware David, indoctrination happens in most religions.

Free Thinker said...

David(unregistered and anonymous) thank you for reading my comments. I will continue to read your own propaganda and dismiss it just the same way.
Peace

Jenny said...

Having
spent some time reading all the comments on this excellent blog you seem to the
most misinformed, bigoted and angry person on it. Just the sort of person the
BNP is looking for.

David said...

We agree on something at last!
As a Practising Atheist, I have no truck with indoctrination however it is presented.
Do you or do you not teach your "free thinking" (of which you show little evidence) to all your pupils?
If not, then you show rank hypocrisy.
If you do, then you may well be in conflict with the religious tenets of Muslim parents.
Kindly answer the question - no more side-stepping.

Free Thinker said...

David-I don't think I have side stepped anything!
I agree with your views on indoctrination. I'm sure you are aware that teachers need to follow a school's policy on whatever subject they teach. There are now some 'Free Schools' that are making creationism part of the science curriculum which as a 'Practising Atheist' I'm sure you know and disagree with! I would not apply for a science teaching post in a school like this!
However, If your problem is about indoctrination do you also campaign against local evangelical churches that produce extra traffic on a Sunday?
My main concern is that if you look a little bit deeper into this whole situation there are some very worrying and nasty racist undertones.

Guest said...

Non-thinker,
Muslims are not a race, pure and simple. Every time you write the word 'racist', you display your own ignorance.


And Muslim isn't related to Asian. They are disconnected (religious faith and geography). Are the populations of India and China Muslim? Are Turkey and North Africa in Asia? What is blindingly obvious is that you haven't got a clue about the world you live in and the views you express.



By the way, 'community centre?' It's a mosque. That's crystal clear from page 1 of the planning application and numerous times thereafter. The clue is the phrase 'place of worship', which you'll first encounter under 'description of proposal', written rather clearly, in bold)


Do have a read of the planning application and you'll have some idea what you're supporting - and why some of us object to it.


And do type the word 'Muslim' in Wikipedia to find out what it means, especially to prevent causing further offence to any Muslims reading you drivel.

David said...

Well, that's the most balanced reply you have given so far.
So, if a Muslim pupil asks you a question, which they feel unable to ask at home or in a mosque (e.g. regarding Islam's hypocritical condemnation of homosexuals) what do you tell them? Something which conflicts with Islam, or that your contract doesn't allow you to answer? I am sure you see that failure to answer their question would amount to condoning homophobia.
I do, indeed, find it a nuisance when church-goers park inconsiderately on the public highway, but Sunday is not the same as seven days a week, and all the local churches either have their own car parks or are away from busy roads. Having rejected the CofE's attempts at indoctrination over half a century ago I do have a fair idea as to what their approach is.
You really do need to drop these allegations of "racism" - as so many people have said, but you refuse to take on board - Muslims are not a race. Then I might just begin to take you seriously.

Guest said...

Jenny, to have made that bold statement, I think you must have missed out all the postings by this anonymous 'Free Thinker'.


Just have a read of (apparently) her nonsense... you can read it all in half the time, if you miss out the word 'racist', every time it appears! :-)

carol said...

worcester park's traffic is already horrendous we do not need or want a mosque! there is also nowhere to park nearby.

Mahomed said...

I have just been informed that we are getting our planning application approved.

Abdul Islam said...

I am a muslime from morden and want the plan to go ahead. We will teach the WP residents of wp the way of islam and tell you about the reql god. Be blessed for the neW mosque to be in wp.

Guest with eyes said...

That claim is as doubtful as your spelling, matey.

Guest with eyes said...

If you and 'Mahomed' work a little harder on your posts together, you might produce something more convincing - or at least with fewer spelling errors.

Abdul said...

Thankyou my muslim brother

Mahomed said...

Salaam alaakam

Guest with eyes said...

I love u my friend xxxxxx

Guest with eyes said...

Congratulations on at least managing to spell 'Guest with eyes' correctly in the 'Name' box... it's a start.


Maybe you can tell us how your 'contribution' under a variety of identities is actually going to help/hinder the planning application?

Hettie said...

This post along with your identity is clearly as honest as the planning application itself!

Stinky said...

Whoop whoop

Peace said...

I thought you had had enough of this @free thinker. Don't post under pseudonyms. Nobody took you seriously the first time

You know I'm right

Guest of WP said...

Stinky, tell us, just by chance, was it you who wrote the wannabe mosque's Planning Application? ... (Only your illogical approach looks very similar).

Mr imam stinky said...

Its mr imam stinky to u pal

Peter Khan (aka The Architect) said...

Has anybody seen the new comedy on BBC1 called Citizen Khan.....its great....long live the queen

ElmsteadCommentator said...

Why are you frightened - been reading too many editions of the Daily Mail?

axlrocky said...

Lord Burstow of Westminister should have plenty of time to devote to this now his coalition chumps have kicked him out of the cabinet - no doubt we will be seeing and hearing from him soon

Commentate on what you know said...

Elmstead, Just maybe she's read the actual planning application, which describes in detail the parking and traffic chaos in Morden, occurring due to the mosque there.


If you too read the planning application, your views might actually be taken seriously, rather than blindly political.

Longfellow said...

why is it taking so long for a decision
i smell a rat

DT said...

No need to smell a rat it was reported here that due to the level of response, the hearing will be in October before the full planning committee. You should then be able to go and object in person.

Kulv Singh said...

As a Hamptons resident, I really hope this does not happen! WP does not need a mosque! And Green Lane does not need more inbound traffic!

Bo peep said...

I don't believe this will be good for WP due to traffic is terrible around that area extremely congested most of the day crazy idea

curious said...

out of interest, would you still have the same level of objection if it was to be a school for those with disabilities? They generate a lot of traffic / parking / and multiple pick ups during the day. As I have seen in the example across the road from my old residence in Southfields.

Curiosity killed the mosque said...

If a school for those with disabilities put in exactly the same joke of a planning application, with the same numbers that don't add up, and the same blatantly fictional claims about traffic and parking, after similarly denying for the previous 2 years that it had any intention of doing so...


then yes, (obviously) it would cause exactly the same objections.


And, if any school for those with disabilities was found to be as similarly dishonest about its intentions, after 2 years of lying and removing its on-line adverts, then those behind it would similarly be seen to be a complete bunch of crooks, who were unworthy of the trust or support of the council and community.

dt said...

If a school for those with disabilities, put an application in to place a site requiring special access at a busy junction with no off road access. Then those proposing it should be hung drawn and quarted publically, it would show no understanding of the needs of the group.

Close to where I grew up there was a special needs school (current politically correct term, though it was known as the spastics school in those days), mainly for those with physical disabilities, it was in a through road. In the mid 70s, that road was closed off at one end to provide better facilities for the busses and ambulances, that brought and collected the kids.

A mosque will in many respects be somewhat similar, in that there will be a significant number of young and elderly, so though your choice of a special needs school as an example was poor, a primary school however would be a better example. I for one would be saddened if the planning committee would be so short sighted to grant permission for the building to converted to a children's school, the location would be totally unsuitable due to the high traffic density of the junction.

For example, consider if some rich donor had given Green Lane school the money to buy the Athletics Ground and construct a school there, I'm sure the planning committee would reject that on safety grounds.

As many people have said the application is amatuerish, confused and self contradicatory and even provides ample grounds for its own rejection, which it almost certainly will be. There will no doubt be a second application which may well get passed (if presented more professionally), but no doubt with a maximum occupancy of the building set at 10-20 people.

Occupancies are usually set by the fire certificate, so breaking them becomes a criminal matter not a civil matter.

PemburyPerson said...

Traffic in Green Lane is already over-capacity and parking for residents is getting more difficult month by month. For example, I've only managed to park outside my house 4 times in 9 weeks!!
As side roads are already overwhelmed with parked cars, even a few extra will have a big impact.
Shudder to think what it will be like with a mosque round the corner...

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

Pembury, and that's before the 184 extra properties of the Hamptons extension (presumably with at least another 184 cars) come into the equation.


Residents will be aware that our MP and our Councillors previously objected to this development, on the same grounds as the community is rejecting to the proposed mosque. That time, objections overruled by central planning - this time central planning is out of the equation, so one would expect our MP and councillors to similarly objection.


But it seems our councillors are remaining surprisingly quiet. Even when pressed, Councillor Roger Roberts refuses to state a viewpoint in the Guardian (who unlike his party colleagues in the same local ward, lost his own seat and then got back in by standing in a safer one, in the adjacent ward). Apparently, he still hasn't realised that 'say nothing, do nothing' councillors (of any political colour) are considered to have a value of 'nothing'.


It will be something of a revelation, if having rejected a planning proposal in the same area, for the same reasons, our MP and local Councillors come up with the opposite conclusion, if it represents the faith of only a small minority - and at that, from their addresses, (clearly) mostly outside the London Borough of Sutton.

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

Not all local councillors have been quiet on this issue. Stuart Gordon Bullock and Eric Allen, your Conservative councillors have been working very hard locally gathering signatures on the official Conservative petition with the help of Gloriana Andrew, Alan Plant and myself (and also helping with the Worcester Park Residents Association petition).

Indeed it seems that everyone except the Liberal Democrats have been walking the streets with petitions, which is funny because it's the Lib Dems who are usually the first group to jump on any bandwagon with a 'Save our this' or 'Save our that' petition (With the obligatory photo of the same dozen Lib Dem supporters holding a big banner.) But this time round there seems not to have been a Lib Dem 'Save Worcester Park's already overflowing parking spaces and traffic flow' petition for some reason.

After the amount of public opposition to this plan, if the Lib Dem run Development Control Committee does approve this plan then we can likely assume this has always been a done deal. And that any pretence by Lib Dems in Worcester Park or North Cheam that they have been fighting for local people has been just that all along – a pretence.

I would strongly recommend that we all attend the Development Control Committee hearing on this plan which should either be on October the 13th or 17th (date to be confirmed) to make sure that the Lib Dems know for certain how unpopular this proposal and the traffic mayhem it will cause really is.

DT said...

In the interests of political neutrality are any of the WP councillors on the planning committee? This of course would prevent them from campaining against a proposal that they would have to judge purely on the submissions made.

I do agree with you though, if this shambolic proposal does get approved, then it is clearly a deal that was arranged prior to submision.

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

Interesting concept DT, that in the interests of neutrality, any Councillor known to oppose a proposal is to be disenfranchised from opposing it!

To extend the logic to the forthcoming committee meeting, if it is to consist of hearing from those in support, discount all opposition and move swiftly on to a decision, there can surely be little doubt which way that would go!

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

Simon, I appreciate that two of our Councillors recognise a disaster in the making and are engaging in this important issue in an attempt to prevent it - it was inaccurate of me to paint all our Councillors with the same brush.


It is perplexing that even with such widespread interest and concerns, the other four local Councillors in those two wards (elected to represent local peoples' interests) are so apparently incapable of undertaking their elected duties and recognising a patently unworkable proposal.


To:
Cllr. Gerry Jerome
Cllr. Kirsty Jerome
Cllr. Stephen Fenwick
Cllr. Roger Roberts


I'm sure you recognise that there's more to being a local Councillor than getting your smiling portrait on the Sutton Council website. Do you think you could find the time to get interested in what for most of your constituents is deemed a highly important and far-reaching decision?


It seems there's more chance of a gold rush in KT4 than of any of you growing a backbone and expressing an opinion. If you don't have an opinion or are frightened to death at the thought of expressing it, why the hell did you stand for election, for a role that requires decisions to be taken and scrutinised in public?


...Or was your collective decision made long ago? And are the silence, the disinterest and the formalities just a sham?


Please let us all know...

DT said...

A councillor who actively attempted to prevent a planning decision before it was discussed, could be grounds for a legal appeal against the council if that application was rejected. On the grounds that the decision was prejudiced.

Planning applications are supposed to be decided purely on planning law, local zoning requirements and suitability of the proposals. In this case, for example if it was used to its proposed maximum occupancy, would there be sufficient fire exits. The proposed maximum occupancy is over 100 people, this places it into the medium category of fire risk and so will require two distinct escape routes, i.e. two separate staircases each with sufficient capacity, possibly more as there will be old, infirm and children in the group. Not on the size of the bung, or the photo opportunity.

However, having said that I would have hoped that the local councillors of all persuasions, on a matter of such local interest would have held an open meeting, so that ALL points of view and issues could be discussed and then raised with the planning group.

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

There are 21 councillors on the planning (Development Control) committee but normally only 8 of them sit on any specific hearing (6 Lib Dems and 2 Conservatives). Both of the Worcester Park Lib Dems are on the committee and so is Conservative Eric Allen from the adjoining Nonsuch ward. Because of how the committee works though, we don't yet know which 8 of the 21 councillors will be hearing this particular proposal. If Eric or the two Worcester Park Lib Dems are selected for this hearing, the procedure is that, if in doubt, before the meeting, they should seek guidance as to whether any of their actions prior to the meeting would preclude them from taking part in hearing and deciding the application. Being on this committee is therefore by no means an excuse for a councillor to refrain from campaigning for the local people he or she represents but they could be required to show that they could not be deemed to have pre-determined their view of any specific application before considering any report or hearing verbal contributions or presentations. As nearly one half of all Sutton councillors are on the Development Control committee, it could make it rather difficult for many residents in certain wards to seek help from their local councillors on any planning issue. They could organise it, for example to have one of them sit on the Committee and the other one representing residents. Whatever the reason that our Lib Dem councillors are remaining so quiet on an issue of such importance to so many local people, it is not because they are on the planning committee. Perhaps they should either think of a different excuse or come clean publicly about their position on this issue.

DT said...

Simon, thanks for you clear explanation. From what you say, it does seem rather strange that they have been invisible on a matter that has raised such local interest.

I would have thought that at least they would have tried to get a balanced view of local opinion, and with due repect to this blog, this is not the forum to gather that information.

A.Martin said...

Once again I come home from work and cant park any where near my home in Pembury Ave. This is just ridiculous !!!!!

Ali said...

As a muslim living in moden i would love a mosque in wp as i drink in the pub opposite......long live islam

Shera said...

Hunji paji i agree with you

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

Not all Councillors are pathetically silent about this. It is only Lib Dim Councillors who refuse to support local residents. Conservatives have spoken out and joined forces with local people helping to gather the thousands of signatures against this proposal.
It is obvious that you can’t justify a proposal that will attract scores of cars to one of the most congested areas in the borough, all looking for a place to park at the same time, especially if that might coincide with Friday afternoon peak traffic.
However the Lib Dems must either be disinterested in the plight of the people who elected them or else they must just be covering up for what is essentially already a done deal.


Khalid Khan said...

We muslims live in morden but do not use the morden mosque due to religious politics of the mosque. This is why we want a mosque in WP. We shall try to car share from Morden to WP in order to have less of an impact on traffic. Many of us have never been to WP and are looking forward to praying in your area. Also, we want to start a petition to close down the local pubs Midas Touch and Centrals as they will be too close to our new mosque.

Islam rules said...

I disagree

Cllr Stephen Fenwick said...

If many of you are not aware of my position on this, I am hopeful that this application gets refused on the grounds that any place of Worship, for any religion, based in the Old Bank Chambers, will create even worse problems regarding the parking and traffic situation along Green Lane. I am aware of these problems, and the difficulties residents have in Green Lane and surrounding streets to gain access to/from Central Road, even with the traffic situation along the high street.

I am aware that there is some hostility towards Sutton Council from residents regarding this application, however the Planning Department needs to go through the legislative trends in order for this to be refused by the Development Control Committee. However, as your local Lib Dem councillor, myself and my ward colleagues will be ensuring that the Planning Dept. takes into full consideration the thousands of signatures on petitions and letters of objection to ensure refusal.

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

I am thankful Cllr Fenwick that you have finally chosen to take up a position on the same side of the fence as your constituents on this matter however I would say that merely being "hopeful that this application gets refused" falls rather far short of the "fighting for local people" claims that we constantly read about in the stream of Lib Dem leaflets put through our letter boxes.

How confident are you really that these objections alone will be enough to "ensure refusal"? Rather than just "ensuring that the Planning Dept. takes into full consideration the thousands of [objections]", which it is already obliged to do anyway, how about going the whole way and standing shoulder to shoulder with the people you currently represent and be seen leading the fight against this application.

This long awaited concession to local residents is a step in the right direction but a very feeble step. People expect more from their elected representatives.

Islam woman said...

Racist

Nikko said...

Islam Woman, please could you explain which part of
Cllr Stephen Fenwick's comment is racist?

Guest of WP said...

It should be pretty obvious by now that residents' opinion within the LBS is strongly against this nightmare gridlock in Green Lane, 5 times-a-day, between dawn and dusk.


I hope this notion of 'a balanced view' doesn't mean artificially reducing the weighting of the clear, overwhelming majority and adding PC extra weighting to the views of the small minority, who by the look of their own planning application, clearly haven't even begun to think it through.


It's a patently dumb proposal that is massively unpopular - period.

Guest of WP said...

Nikko, if you've been reading the comments from the small band of lobotomised militants, writing haphazardly in support of this haphazardly written planning application, you'll be aware that 'racist' is the standard retort used by them, after their
astoundingly poor judgment and mindless ignorance has been highlighted, resulting in their public humiliation.


Though in this case, my interpretation is that it's a humorous dig at the aforementioned 'mosque mafia', rather than at Cllr. Stephen Fenwick. Although, looking back, there was one mosque-supporting nutter who claimed to be a teacher, whose IQ appeared to be about the same as the age of the kids she thinks she teaches - it might be her back again.

Nikko said...

Guest of WP; yes, sadly, you're right, "racist" is the response of the ignorant. The "teacher", who seemed to think that it is somehow better to be anonymously signed in to Disgus than to anonymously post on this blog had a rant at me when I questioned her use of the term "racist". Unfortunately I was travelling at the time, and didn't have a chance to respond before she flounced off in a huff. I hope you are right that this is an attempt at humour; we shall see, should Islam Woman bother to respond.
However, I think that you are being overly generous in saying that the IQ of the "teacher" was about the same as the age of the kids she thinks she teaches.

4PS said...

Simon...please remind me ....is this a war or a response to a planning application?!

Simon Densley (Consv Activist) said...

It is an important enough issue to have galvanized the people of Worcester Park in to generating over 7,000 objections, with many people giving up their evenings and weekends to go out and gather signatures. @4PS are you suggesting that I am taking residents too seriously?

Islam woman said...

I look forward to the new mosque opening in wp. I do unstand your concearns, there will be a huge impact on parking, a lot more traffic as we will have over a thousand muslims attending daily. However, we will get planning and then you all will be red faced. Islam is here to take over wp as we have done in many cities - bradford, birmingham, slough, dorset, etc.

Nikko said...

I am a sado

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

4PS, to remind you, it's a war - a war in response to a planning application, which threatens to inflict huge and irreparable damage on the lives of everyone, be they a resident, business owner, employer, employee or visitor - 7,000 objections out of 10,000 residents isn't something that can be easily ignored.


I welcome Cllr. Fenwick's statement above and thank Cllr. Gordon Bullock and Cllr. Allen and their teams for their efforts. The fact that we now have Councillors from different parties objecting is extremely welcome and reassuring, after some deeply concerning question dodging from Cllr. Roberts.
Thanks also to our local traders, who gathered signatures and everyone who's taken the time to formally submit a reasoned rejection of their own. [Having done so myself, I found it wasn't hard to state the obvious, but it took some time to point out all the obvious failings].
Given a level playing field, this proposal is a non-starter - it can only possibly succeed if the playing field isn't level... see you all at the October meeting, although I'm not sure there's going to be a building bid enough to accommodate all the objectors.

DT said...

@63b02d4831f1a9a2d99c0836f1e19727:disqus: though I'm sure you're a fake trying to stir up trouble, let me point out Slough is a town, Dorset is a county. Stop trying to persuade us that all supporters of this application have IQs in the bottom percentile.

Guest said...

Although looking at the planning application [ 230+ people = 10-15 people, apparently], maths certainly ain't their strong point.

DT said...

Also there may more disinformation than that, I went past the Mordern Mosque just before 5.00AM, and it was ablaze with lights, so bright it could be seen lighting the sky from Stonecot hill and yet sunrise is at 6:53 today.

Cllr Stephen Fenwick said...

I will admit that the word "hopeful" was not the best word to use, as I am confident the application for a Mosque will be refused and rejected. However, whilst the Conservative cllrs chose to go around Worcesrer Park to gather signatuures to represent the ward, I was aware of the hostility many residents would have to this, given that it was a hot topic in the ward a few years ago. Moreover, that I am aware of the traffic situation along Green Lane, my first assumption when I saw the application was that it should be rejected. However, don't assume by this that I do not listen to resident's views, or fight for local residents, as I do; the new traffic measures along Dorchester Road came about after I spent many days and months on the doorstep listening to residents and parents concerns about Dorchester Road and speeding issues. And there will be many more improvements to Worcester Park in the near future which I will working to ensure by representing the views of my residents.
However, with the supposed Mosque, I know - with common sense - to oppose it, because it's in the wrong place and with very little demand to the the community.

I am disappointed with Cllr Roberts' comments to residents; his comments do not represent my views or my goals for Worcester Park. However, should anyone have any concerns about this or other issues in Worcester Park, then please contact me.

axlrocky said...

hear hear - name and shame - love it!

Disgraceful... said...

so whats actually going on here...is it happening...isnt it? either way the residents of worcester park (being one myself) have no say in this what so ever...allthough we have all voiced our opionons and signed petitions nothing is taken seriously...

Islam woman•5 days ago•parent
−+Flag as inappropriate
Nikko: I look forward to the new mosque opening in wp. I do unstand your concearns, there will be a huge impact on parking, a lot more traffic as we will have over a thousand muslims attending daily. However, we will get planning and then you all will be red faced. Islam is here to take over wp as we have done in many cities - bradford, birmingham, slough, dorset, etc. you should be ashamed of yourself ..TAKE OVER?!?! what kind of "parent" are you... its not about taking over places, i find that comment racist and discusting...
over a thousand muslims visiting everyday?! im not sure thats true to be honest, people have been told that this application has been re applyed after being refused once already and the reason behind it was that the muslims claimed they would use public transport so there would be no effect on traffic...clearly that isnt going to happen as you have stated above... personally i think you should keep you vindictive, rude, racist, obnoxious comments to yourself.

Guest said...

"so whats actually going on here...is it happening...isnt it?"

Gees, we've had several posts from local Councillors telling us exactly what's gone on, going on and will go on, and what the planning process is (as well as how unpopular this proposal is) ... all you have to do is read below...


Whilst you've been so attentively reading the nonsense comments and getting so excited about them, it seems you've overlooked all the informative stuff...

Watching said...

I would say it is already being used as I see people going in there at 5 20 in the morning every day of the week surely it is being used as a place of worship already

Guest of WP said...

If so, it would represent a use of the building that wasn't legal. Interesting.

Can anyone suggest how many times it would have to happen, before Sutton Council would concede that a daily event is something more than a one-off, coincidentally recurring?

DT said...

I would doubt that any use at that time of day by a group of people would be considered to be allowed use for a building undergoing planning approval.

Uses that might be considered reasonable would be Security patrols, Meetings with Architects, planning consultants etc.

But only the first of these would you expect at this time of day.

The best approach would to take photograhs, with time and date switched on, and send them to the planning committee.

My access is via Green Lane said...

It's gone quiet on the Mosque front again... which could indicate something's happening! Do we have a firm date, time and place for this public meeting?

Longfellow said...

if you look on Sutton website you will see they haven't even received reply s from the people they have consulted so that says to me no one at the council is taking this seriously and it will probably slip through as they will hope everyone's forgotten about it if they stretch it out

Guest of WP said...

My understanding of the process is:


1. Assuming the application was not accepted, the council will have put their/our objections to Mr. Aziz, for him to reflect on and given the opportunity to resubmit an application that takes account of the objections.


2. Once this is obtained, the council will formally notify everyone who objected that it has received a revised application and offer the opportunity to everyone to comment on it. [Presumably the most convenient and efficient way would be to upload it, as before].


3. The application is either accepted or goes back to stage one.

peace-harmony said...

Guys, I am really disappointed with the views here. There is so much ignorance about Islam it is unbelievable. Contrary to belief on this forum, we do not pray in a Mosque 5 times a day, nor do we want to. In fact, we pray some of the 5 prayers at home, and it would would be nice to pray sometimes in a Mosque. Loudspeakers sounding out the call to prayer, the Azhaan, is only done in Islamic countries - and would not be done in the UK. We do not attend Mosque in our hoards and park illegally unless we want parking tickets issued. I don't think anyone would go to Mosque at 4am to pray unless it is in the month of Ramzhaan (English speakers tend to mis-pronounce it as Ramadan)...and even then it is only the very devout who do so at this hour. We are taught to love our neighbours, to promote peace, tolerance and harmony - yes, really.

Of course, there are a select number of idiots who give our religion a bad name...but which group within society doesn't have such people?! Sadly, there are a much greater number of people who like to jump on the the 'hate Islam' bandwagon...using these idiots who give our religion a bad name as excuses for promoting hatred towards Islam.

Since I read the comments on this blog, I made a mental note to look out for the churches in Worcester Park - and I was surprised to note that there are so many of them - and belonging to various sects within Christianity. I would never a) dream of telling all Christians to pray at the same Church even though they might be Korean Christians, Protestants, Cathlolics blah blah)....and b) I would not want there to be any hatred or opposition to these Churches. Why should there be afterall? The point of a place of worship is simply that - to pray to God to thank for all the blessings we have been given and to ask for mercy in the world with regards to all the bad things that are happening....to ask for good health for our children.....to give peace, safety, health, happiness, food to those less fortunate than us....that's what I have been taught by my religion.

The reason why we would like a Mosque is so we can pray with other local fellow Muslims (there is something beautiful and peaceful about praying shoulder to shoulder with others).....much the same reason as why there is a need for a Church.

Most of the opponents on this blog will say their views are not to do with hatred of Islam or Muslims and it's just a traffic/parking problem.....but neither we, nor the people at Sutton Council, are stupid or oblivious to what exactly is being said and what exactly is the point of contention for these people.

I feel sad reading this blog. I had thought WP was a lovely place to live when I moved here. I am wrong as it is inhabited by so many ignorant people who like to hate and incite hatred.

Teatime said...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and just because there are some who oppose the mosque does automatically not make them racist.

The premises which you are looking to convert is simply not suitable, even you must see this! I used to live in Morden and witnessed on a regular basis the chaos with parking. There was a train station right next door but for some reason everyone had to come by car, WP will not be able to cope with even more traffic. Also parking is a problem so cannot see how this will all work. Like you I like living in WP which is why I'm so worried about this being approved.

Chubbys said...

This application must not go through. I do not have any issues with races that are peaceful like Jews, Hindus, Christians and Sikhs. But history shows Muslims just want everyone to convert to their religion. There is no place in wp for a mosque. Please reapply to somewhere else like slough, Bradford, Birmingham, etc. peace out

DT said...

Chubbys: Muslims do not have a history of sending Missionaries to convert the heathen. In Turkey for example there has been tolerence of other religions since the 14th Century, with a large Jewish population who fled there to avoid Christian persecution (remember the Inquisition).

For most of us the issue is not the presence of a Mosque, but the attempt to place it in a most unsuitable location, which even the application itself highlights the unsuitability.

I for one see no harm in a Mosque, but in a more sensible location.

peace-harmony said...

of course ....opposing the Mosque does not make one a racist...but as I said....both you and I can read between the lines and much of the sentiment on this blog is not just about opposing the Mosque per se. I can see that the premises in question does not have much scope for parking.....but reading many of the comments here, there is a much more sinister sentiment.....it's not just a parking issue, is it now?

peace-harmony said...

....ideally, we would want a premises with better parking facilities Having said that....there is a Church within walking distance of my house and every Sunday my road as well as all neighbouring roads get packed full with car for families attending Sunday service at Church. Yes, when we have visitors to my house on Sundays there is very little or no parking for them....but we don't mind. We don't attack all Christians verbally with hate messages on local blogs, calling them a pain, claiming they want to convert us all to their faith, claim they want to take over the whole of the UK....blah blah. A slight parking inconvenience is tolerated in the name of faith - albeit a different one to ours. I am a Muslim....a peace-loving one. My parents, my book of faith - the Quran, my religious teachers have all always taught me to love my neighbour and to promote love and peace. Wish the writers on this blog would practice the same tolerance.

peace-harmony said...

This is obviously a hoax! Mr Khalid Khan - there are a few (!) intelligent people on this blog who know that you are neither Muslim nor a supporter of the Mosque. Your identity is known - you idiot!

Guest of WP said...

Peace-harmony, you are full of utterly dumb statements and false claims, it's even obvious to those of us without any religious faith:

"Contrary to belief on this forum, we do not pray in a Mosque 5 times a day, nor do we want to."

Obviously you have failed to read the Planning Application - you know, the one you so devoutly support! It states (Travel Plan, 4.16), according to it's own survey results, conducted at the local mosques you presumably regularly attend: 44% of visitors attend ALL FIVE daily prayers. 46% attend four, 84% attend three and it is claimed, 100% attend two - the first and the last of each day!

"I don't think anyone would go to Mosque at 4am to pray unless it is in the month of Ramzhaan (English speakers tend to mis-pronounce it as Ramadan)...and even then it is only the very devout who do so at this hour"

Again, read your own Planning Application! According to its own survey (so you'll obediently agree with every word of its findings), the first and last prayer are the most well attended - 100% attendance!! And that survey was apparently undertaken on Monday 14th May - so not during Ramadan (or even Ramzhaan) would it?

"Loudspeakers sounding out the call to prayer, the Azhaan, is only done in Islamic countries - and would not be done in the UK."

Really? Are you sure about that? So maybe the rest of us are imagining this in LONDON?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja_xnCFOen0

Or how about this? Also recorded in London...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH4mhs_VasQ

And how about this on the corner of Central Road and Green Lane, five times a day? Especially at 4am!...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bi18fYa_gY

"Since I read the comments on this blog, I made a mental note to look out for the churches in Worcester Park - and I was surprised to note that there are so many of them"

And did you make a mental note of how many of them lack on-site parking, so they commandeer the Waitrose car park without a thought for anyone else?

How many of these churches are situated and the busiest junction in town, which is already a bottleneck?

And how many of these churches conduct services 5 times a day, 7 days a week? Especially from 4pm to 11pm and during peak periods of traffic flow and local parking requirements?

"Of course, there are a select number of idiots who give our religion a bad name...but which group within society doesn't have such people?!"

Yep, you're certainly one of those idiots, an idiot who apparently thinks it's excusable to be an idiot if you're of an Islamic faith - but inexcusable if you follow any other. How inexcusably ignorant!

"I had thought WP was a lovely place to live when I moved here. I am wrong as it is inhabited by so many ignorant people who like to hate and incite hatred."

I completely agree. I never thought that so-called community faith group would deny it existed, to the community for 2-3 years, then ignorantly announce it intended to conduct religious worship at the busiest junction in town - 5 times a day, 7 days a week!

Similarly, I didn't think anyone would seriously put forward a planning application intending to utilise an already full local car park and declare that anyone within the remaining 99% of the community who dared disagree with the demands was inciting hatred!

I'm sure Sutton Council aren't idiots either. So when they have turned down this completely lunatic planning application, no doubt you'll similarly claim they are "ignorant people who like to hate and incite hatred"

Guest of WP said...

If you've read just a few pages of the Planning Application, you'll know that the claims of 'peace-harmony' are patently false.

Earlier this week, I spent some time writing a response, pinpointing where, in each case, the Planning Application states the complete opposite!...

...But it never appeared. Indeed, recently nobody except 'peace-harmony' seems to have been able to upload an opinion - and I'm guessing a few have tried!...

If the Worcester Park blog has become a platform for overtly dishonest claims from one particular faith, to prevent wider confusion for the rest of us, could the header picture be amended to read "The Islamic Extremist Worcester Park Blog'? Ta.

PS Does anyone know if there's another local community blog where views other those of 'peace-harmony' are welcomed?

Hettie said...

I totally agree. It is not just a parking issue. It is also an issue of further gross traffic congestion in an area of the borough completely ill equipped to cope with it. This will only serve to blight the lives of local residents further. If this application is successful I see the daily lives of many being neither peaceful or harmonious.......

Amazed said...

...So speaking out in favour of this mosque is tantamount to Islamic extremism?

What are your views on the shop which has just opened up where the Alfred Gosslett furniture store used to be?

Don't tell me you've been in there to buy something have you?... I shall be reporting you to the anti-terrorist section immediately.

Guest of WP said...

Most of us would accept that exclusively broadcasting the views of not just a minority within a community, but those of a small minority within a minority faith does not capture or represent the views of a community.

To go further and publish patently false claims of that 'minority of a minority' and its associated, political agenda - and to deny the majority community view or any other access to challenge those statements - on what claims to be a 'community blog'.... this is undoubtedly a rich display of extremism.

Do have read of the Planning Application, then come back and tell us how 'amazed' you are to have discovered your ignorance, from the numerous, obvious differences between it and what 'peace-harmony' claims it is.

As for the new shop:- Unlike the 'secret' 2/3 year old mosque that has been the biggest open secret in town, it looks like the proprietor has been fully honest legal in establishing his business (which unlike the mosque welcomes the entire community, rather than pretending it doesn't exist). Like all the local traders, I wish this proprietor well.

I certainly would hate the proprietor to be informed by a small mob that his premises has been commandeered as a secret mosque and he/she will either embrace and obey mob rule or be deemed a racist, whose opposition they will not tolerate!

WP resident said...

Please please put your objections in on the link below if you oppose the use of this building as a mosque. This will lead to massive parking and traffic issues in the area.

longfellow said...

Guys

I Got a letter today saying there has been a revison to the application and directing you to the sutton website

I have been unable to get on there for the last hour. if anyone gets through please post here

longfellow said...

just read the revisions and it looks like the council have done the deal agreeing in principal to the change of use.


a half assed survey has been done of waitrose car park which has no substance


looks like the council will let this go through just like the hamptons and in six months time will realise when WP is gridlocked that they were wrong

Zabo said...

It does indeed look like the mosque will be approved tomorrow. They state 10-15 per prayer session per day except Friday when they say circa 160 individuals will be at prayer.

I have had to move to Acton - they have a cultural centre mosque here too and they have pretty much taken over the place. Bye bye Worcester Park - in 10 years the place will be full of burqas and flooded with muslim worshippers. Add to that all the eastern europeans that are flocking and the place will be unrecognisable. Saw it happen here in Acton - and it aint Britain anymore.

A said...

Well said.

Commentate on what you know said...

Elmstead, Just maybe she's read the actual planning application, which describes in detail the parking and traffic chaos in Morden, occurring due to the mosque there.


If you too read the planning application, your views might actually be taken seriously, rather than blindly political.

the parkerilla said...

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse. I've just been looking at Cunnane Town Planning who put together the planning application for the owners of Bank Chambers. They operate in England and Ireland. Their speciality seems to be helping groups of gypsy caravan owners to fight eviction from illegally occupied land. They advertise in "Traveller's Times" see here http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/advert.aspx?a=20d47f3d-11e8-4b1b-a682-b70f5df2d63f . I've just had the misfortune to glance at a few threads at that forum and its not great. Now if you were the owner of Bank Chambers and wanted to try and get the people of WP on your side to allow a local mosque you'd understand that having any association with gypsy squatters, however indirect, isn't a good idea. Wouldn't you??

Billy said...

There should be one here I'm behind this all the way

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