Friday, 20 July 2012

Worcester Park Mosque Plans Submitted

A planning application has been submitted to convert vacant premises in Green Lane, Worcester Park, into a mosque.

In March 2010, The Worcester Park Blog exclusively revealed that a local group was seeking to create a 'Worcester Park Islamic Community Centre' in the Bank Chambers premises next to Kingfish, although no planning application had been submitted at the time.

When contacted by the Blog in 2010, a spokesman for the organisation denied that they were proposing a mosque at the site, and their website which called for 'Muslims locally and internationally to donate generously towards building the House of Allah' in Worcester Park was hastily taken offline.


Now, a formal planning application has been submitted to Sutton Council for permission to turn the premises into a place of worship.


If plans are approved, the mosque would operate virtually around the clock with the first prayer session, in summer months, starting 4am and the last session starting at 11pm. 


Documentation submitted in support of the application claims that only 10-15 people are expected to visit for each of the five daily prayer sessions - despite later assertions that the mosque is needed to meet the needs of the "hundreds of Muslim families [who] live within Worcester Park and surrounding areas" and despite a subsequent acknowledgement that the building "can accommodate up to its maximum of 140 people".


Traffic congestion in Green Lane is already a major issue, with frustrated local residents already reporting queues of more than 10 minutes to get from the bottom of Green Lane and on to Central Road.


Despite already congested on-street parking, the application for the mosque claims that there will be no significant impact on traffic congestion and parking issues, citing the location's excellent public transport infrastructure.


Local residents have until 10th August 2012 to submit their comments, support or objections to the proposed mosque in Worcester Park. 


The full planning application and supporting information can be found here. Comments on the proposed mosque can be sent to Sutton Council via this online form.




164 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Sigh said...

Let the ranting begin................

Clairey said...

How many comments will now begin "I'm not racist, but............"

Noemail said...

No thanks not in my back yard, there planning application sounds like a work off fiction, if so few people are to attend why is there is room for up to 160 people it doesn't add up, i'am sure during Ramadan there will be sleep overs aswell, oh joy if Green lane couldn't be any more congested also i'am sure that this isnt just going to go away.

Schrodinger said...

I most certainly don't want one. Already signed a petition that came to my house today.
This doesn't come from racism, this is nothing against Islam itself. This is a question of religion as a whole. No matter what the religion or religious building I would be opposed to it. I would oppose a church, a Hindu temple, a synagogue and of course a mosque.
The more I can oppose the childish, immature and damaging concepts of religions and magical sky people, the better. A world without religion will be a better one, one that integrates society and reduces the conflicts religion promotes.
Religion is dangerous, pure and simple and anything I can do to help wipe it from the face of this earth, I will do so with great pride.

Mad said...

who cares?

Jan said...

i have filled the form out saying how ridculous it is to having anything like this in green lane where it can take me up to half an hour some mornings to get out of greenlane onto the high street

Wayne said...

That's how it started in Acton. A moslem cultural centre for a few worshippers. You don't get indigenous Brits there now. Burka is the standard dress - its now a moslem area. All liberal lefties will eventually find out when in twenty years they take over this country. Call me a racist I don't care. I don't want an religious site built in WP!

Andy Martin said...

As a resident of Pembury Avenue, we have a constant struggle already to park outside or within reasonable distance from our properties due to people using us as a station car park. This would only add to the problem and cause a lot of unrest amongst the already unhappy residents. The access in Green lane has always been an issue since the major development at the Hamptons. This can only worsen if the plans get approved. I for one will definately object to the project and hope more residents follow.

Yule Nevano said...

How about a community centre welcoming everyone, all races ,all religions, young and old, bringing local people together. Isn't the biggest mosque in Europe only a short distance away? Surely that could accommodate the 15 people wishing to pray.

Isleaskye said...

Before our councillors review in plans we need is a complete rethink on traffic flow thru Worcester Park and an additional car park in the area as space is limited in all the car parks which we are all aware of. Ok traffic is a bit lighter from July to the first week in September when all hell breaks out again. Sutton Council please sort the existing situation first and don't make it worse, then review the planning application. 

Steve said...

Suggest all residents write to/call their local councillors AND London assembly members to object as well as write to the council directly. Make enough noise and the council will have no choice but to decline it. Morden has already become an islamic enclave, let's not have the same happen to WP.

Michael Hope said...

Given the current state of the 'economy' in Worcester Park/Central Road maybe a new amenity might be of benefit to some of the businesses - a steady influx of visitors could bring new revenues to some of the shops.
 Having said that traffic congestion is clearly an issue and I sympathise with the local residents regarding parking. In part this could be overcome if people walked to the station or if they needed to drive investigated using the station car park. I realise the latter is costly and can get full up but it isn't always full and if you want to drive maybe the cost of parking is the price to pay. I think this application should only be given the go-ahead if a convincing solution can be identified for car parking - as in reality I suspect most people travelling to and from it would use cars rather than public transport. I think there should also be consideration for increased visitor numbers that might arise on special events and if the building becomes popular - in short the numbers presented should be challenged. Maybe the applicants can be asked to provide more information on the catchment area it is hoping to reach and how people will travel to the mosque. My instinct is that without an adequate solution for parking there will be significant problems in the road - it should be remembered there is a school , sports ground and senior citizens home in the road which would all need access for emergency vehicles ( let alone the 'normal' houses ). On the subject of parking and inconveniencing local residents - I often drive near or by Dorchester Road to pick up my disabled mother - the amount of silly parking from people picking up /dropping off children is ridiculous. There seems to be no consideration for local residents or indeed other children. I accept the local school can only do so much but I hope people will reflect over the Summer and consider walking to school if they can or at least finding somewhere safe to park avoiding parking on corners and bends. I understand some double yellow lines are being put into place shortly around Dorchester Road which are welcome but hopefully this will not simply displace the problem a few yards up the road. 

Powderpuff said...

Can you imagine the chaos this will cause in this notorious traffic 'hot spot'?? The poor residents of Green Lane must be very concerned by this and I urge all Worcester Park residents to stand shoulder to shoulder with them as the traffic congestion will effect us all. Sign the petitions organised by the Worcester Park Residents Association that are going round or voice your concerns on the Sutton Council web site - Planning  - no. A2012/66050/FUL. Apparently the local police are against this proposal for the same reason, and apart from the parking chaos are concerned that this may insight serious community tension  - something Worcester Park residents including our respected muslim community should avoid at all costs!
The Baitul Futuh Mosque in Morden is the largest mosque in western Europe on a 5.2 acre site holding a capity of 4000. It was built to fulfill the worshipping needs of the muslim community of greater London and the surrounding area. There would need to be a very strong argument to justify another mosque in Worcester Park when Morden is a 10 min bus ride away! If there IS strong justification then it needs to be located where it is not going to cause traffic chaos with comings and goings 5 times a day! The Central Road end of Green Lane is definately not the place.
PLEASE act to make sure it doesnt happen.

SVKG said...

Email Paul Burstow if you don't want this to go ahead, I'll never vote for him again if this happens. Putting a mosque in the entrance of worcester park is not representative of the community whose vast majority aren't of that belief. Right opposite the old huntsmans hall. That won't cause to many problems will it???

MdM said...

If this gets the go ahead I shall be selling up and moving. As a resident of green lane I find it amazing that this is even being considered. The traffic in green lane and the surrounding roads is already a nightmare, it regularly takes me twenty minutes to get from my house to the junction with central road in the mornings. What with the hamptons development going up with seemingly no consideration to The impact this would have on congestion. This shall only be made worse if the mosque is given the go ahead. I read that the mosque is only expected to attract 10 to 15 people for each worship session. I find this hard to believe, there is a far smaller mosque in stonleigh which regularly attracts far more people. Also the prayers start from 4am and the last one is at 11pm in the evening. I'm sure the residents towards that end of green lane will love people milling around outside there homes at all times of the day. I really hope this does not happen.

TommyTrinder said...

     I live in Beverley Gardens. This ‘crescent’ is the first turning in Green lane and the first available parking spaces for this proposed public amenity (4 spaces for 16 houses not including the houses in Green Lane with yellow lines outside). From Beverley Gardens to Central Road, past the Green Lane property in question, is all double yellow line parking restrictions both sides of the road.
     In the immediate vicinity of this proposed public building (and Beverley Gardens) is:
A main line railway station that is just within Zone 4 that attracts commuter from further away by car in order to save on rail fares.A sports field with social club.A Post Office Parcel Collection centre.A chip shop (with other shops/banks just beyond).     Being a ‘crescent’ Beverley Gardens is regularly used as a convenient ‘roundabout’ to turn round in, stop and drop off people, or to wait when collecting commuters, people picking up parcels from the Post Office, attending sports fixtures, or popping to the chip shop, banks, shops, etc. If no parking spaces are available (there very rarely is), drivers ‘wait’ in the middle of the road in Beverley Gardens blocking drives and hoping nobody needs access. This is often with engines left running and music playing, causing un-necessary noise and pollution.      Obviously the addition of a ‘public building’ which has no provision for parking or drop off point what-so-ever, due to the double-yellow lines surrounding it, would undoubtedly be extremely detrimental to the local environment. Any traffic will almost certainly use our road to drop off or turn round - I can put up with the commuter cars as the station was here before me - but don't need car doors slamming at 4am, etc.     Traffic using Green Lane has increased dramatically in recent years, the relatively recent construction of the large Hamptons estate at the far end has not helped in this respect.     The local infrastructure simply cannot support a public amenity such as this that has, according to the application, a capacity for 140 people - yet absolutely no parking or even a drop off point!!!!!         I'm sure when it rains people would still be dropped at the door and this would block Green Lane to traffic coming in as well as going out and congestion would back up into Central Road.    Interesting to note that in the letters from the Environment Agency given to locals regarding the flood prevention plans dated 8 June and 18 July, they both make mention of the quote "already difficult parking and access arrangements along Green Lane" unquote.     Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the date by which objections have to be submitted the 3rd August.     Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought objections had to be submitted to      Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought objections had to be submitted to
 

Tweetz said...

Unbelievable . As a Muslim resident of WP I am appalled at people's intolerances. Just to educate some of you the mosque in Morden in an Ahmaddhi mosque which means only this specific sect can attend it. Ahmaddis are a sect that are not considered mainstream Muslims but happen to have a strong hub in Morden. Their mosque is out of bounds for us.
Secondly traffic would only be disrupted Friday lunchtimes and in Ramadan evenings (one month in a year which happened to start today ie. school holidays) nobody is going to the mosque between 8-9 in the morning or between 5-6 pm ie. in rush hours.
So please learn a little about Muslims before you start petitioning against a mosque.

Shakermaker said...

My dad tried to purchase the freehold of the building in 2009 merely to use it as an Accountancy office, but unfortunately it got sold to these chaps who are planning to build the Mosque there. If he'd managed to get it then we wouldn't be having this debate and the residents of Green Lane and beyond wouldn't have to worry about further traffic congestion.

I'm another opposing this; trying to drive through Worcester Park high street on a Saturday already takes 20minutes just to get from one end of the high street to the other!

MdM said...

The only thing I'm intolerable to is traffic. And that's why I oppose it. Stop living in a dream world. Of course there will be more congestion.

Schrodinger said...

Isn't it great how such a peaceful and tolerant religion even segregates its own members of the same religion? Such a wonderfully inclusive virtue which of course must be of benefit to a community as a whole...
Yes the same can be said of Christianity which is why I say it is time to wake up, join together and stop this religious nonsense.
Why should ANYBODY else have to suffer at all because of YOUR beliefs? Why on earth do you think it is acceptable that you should cause even the slightest bit of disruption? If you want to believe in fairy tales and nonsense, that is your prerogative but leave the rest of us alone.

WPKT4 said...

Sorry.....but if you want to see mayhem, go to Southall on a Friday lunchtime and you will see the disregard and disrespect on the road in terms of cars being parked anywhere and the traffic wardens turning a blind eye......people following prayers on the road because the mosque is full and that is how it is where you have a mosque. I worship at a temple and am more than willing to travel to Stoneleigh or Wimbledon-it's not far at all so no excuses. There will be little additional revenue as we would like to think, just mayhem, and dare I say it, possibly racist abuse against the small number of Asians (of all faiths) who live here in WP because this sort of subject sees us all bundled in together. It will never be 10-15 worshippers, there are 2 Eids, Ramzan goes on for a month it will definitley be many more worshippers-there is a high number of Muslim families here in WP. Green Lane is simply terrible as is Central Road so we don't want to add to it....let's be practical and make this into a community centre (as someone below suggested) or a study centre for our kids to get into those good Sutton schools that everyone but Sutton kids get into. WP has a wonderful community who accept multi faiths and cultural differences and as a British born Asian, I want to continue living here with my WP born kids happily just getting on it!

Sunshine said...

Tweetz - It has nothing to do with intolerance to a Mosque but more about intolerance to more traffic. Living virtually on the doorstep of this proposed ammenity, I would object to any religion or any public use of the building, especially where it is not possible to control the number of people who might want to use it. There may not be a rush hour service but some people would still attend at unsociable hours effecting local residents. I am sorry you cannot use the Morden Mosque but Bank Chambers is not fit for purpose as 'any public building'. I personally cannot cope with anymore traffic/noise late at night, early morning or any other time of day. You need to realise the people living in the immediate locality have been very concerned about the traffic for a long time. Repeat - it has nothing to do with it being proposed as a Mosque and nothing to do with racism - its about the threat of even more traffic.

Sean said...

Michael with all due respect a mosque will have no benefit to local business...... 

just saying said...

Isn't there a lovely community centre type building on the hamptons i believe it's called maple lodge surely they could look into using that, it's nicely out of the way with plenty of parking makes far more sense IF as someone says it's only to be used so infrequantley at non peak times!!   wow just saw a large pig flying over pembury ave!

Katie4 said...

The people of Worcester Park must all stand together to stop this.

Tomlyn said...

As a resident of WP for 46 years, I have seen the traffic congestion grow and grow to it's present level which is now way beyond acceptable to residents and business's. 
So my reply to you is NO I do not want a mosque in WP.
You ask us to be tolerant, how tolerant would the muslim community be if I wanted to build a CoE Church in a muslim country.
I have no desire to learn about the muslim faith until they recognise that this is England and a Christian country. 

Worcester Parkian said...

Nothing against people's right to choose whatever faith they wish to follow, and this is nothing to do with intolerance etc. For God Himself gave us free will, right?
There is currently a petition in Worcester Park against the building of the proposed mosque.If anyone is interested in signing it, the petition is held at Russ the Fruiterers, Centrals wine bar, Pets Place...and somewhere else. Where is the other place?

Geoff said...

If you wish to halt this project, there is a planning lawyer by the name of Gavin Boby who has fought and halted 13 of these Mosque applications.  Mr Boby can be contacted here: admin @ lawandfreedomfoundation .org 

Hi website can be found here:

http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/

Jamie Gray said...

as far as I can tell there is one main road going through Worcester Park: Central Road. maybe if Sutton Council didn't make all motorised transport stop 4 times in 500 metres, the flow through it would be slightly better. but oh no, that would be contradictory to their aim of cleaner air and less road fumes, wouldn't it?

as a staunch atheist I don't think there should be any religious buildings. most of the global wars and troubles of the last 250 years have happened because of religion: Israel/Palestine, WW2, the IRA, Iraq, etc. so it is no surprise to read comments from "Tweetz" below that there are different sects within the same religion. It's no different to saying how we have CofE, Catholicism, Protestants...

Muslims (and any other faith) should coexist peacefully within the fabric of the nation. Tweetz, you might be appalled at people's intolerances, but I'm pretty appalled that deranged lunatics amongst your brethren enjoy gang raping little girls in Heywood, whilst nobody at a Local Authority level or higher seems to give a toss.

Jamie Gray said...

Michael, if we want to drive anywhere, the price motorists pay is:
Road tax
Car insurance
Fuel
Servicing/MOT

Do you know why Norway has some of the most hazardous roads in Europe yet one of the lowest driver mortality rates? Better driver education is the answer. I would like to see fines for people who deliberately clog up junctions, box lanes, and other lousy driver etiquette.

JohnMac said...

Why don't you learn a little of the people of Worcester Park and it's community and what we want...whether you like it or not we do not want a Morque in Green Lane...this is our community please give us some respect.

Guest said...

I neither know nor care about the Morden Mosque all I know is is that I don't want one in Worcester Park. I am intolerant and I gave up believing in fairy stories when I was old enough to think for myself. I fail to see why Worcester Park requires a Mosque when the Muslim population of the area is so small unless its purpose is to attract Muslims into the area and turn it into a Muslim enclave. If their religeon is so important to the small number of Muslims in the area I sugest they move to an area nearer an existing Mosque of their liking instead of trying to change the make up of Worcester Park.

Claire Williams said...

I live very close to the proposed mosque and have signed the petition
against the application purely on the grounds that the traffic congestion on
Green Lane is already at ridiculous proportions (especially since the
development at the Hamptons). I'm also an athiest and have no time for any
religion. What I would say, however, is that the presence of law-abiding worshippers
coming and going on that corner might deter the drug-dealing that is going on
(even in broad daylight today) in that vicinity and which worries me more than
the mosque from the point of view of the area's reputation.

Longfellow Road Resident said...

As a Worcester Park resident of Longfellow Road who has been given a parking ticket for not parking completely in one of the bays in Longfellow Road (it was the only place available at the time) even though one set of wheels was in the bay I was then told by Sutton Council I would not have got a ticket if I had just parked on the road in the same spot I will be absolutely outraged if Sutton Council give this the green light.

I am staunchly against any plans for absolutely anything in Worcester Park which is not completely self-sufficient in parking and will not add to congestion in the area. I note the application includes space for parking bicycles but not cars! A much better use of the building would be as a car park! That is what Worcester Park needs whilst there are no restrictions on parking in the area.

Sutton Council need to propose and implement a sensible sustainable parking scheme for the whole of Worcester Park and not just Green Lane and Longfellow Road as you are just moving the problem 100 metres down the road before any planning application such as this which will increase the need for parking can ever be considered.

Schrodinger said...

Guess what? Over half the population of the UK have no religion. Only 35% or so actually believe in a god.  
The population of this country is not Christian by a significant margin, it is a secular one.

WP resident said...

Shiraz Mirza Hall in Manor Park, Malden road, New Malden (just down the road) is used as a mosque on Fridays. 

Bkjason said...

The traffic in Green Lane is already bad enough and I am beginning to think that we should 
re name Worcester Park to Worcester Car Park! It is not fair on the residents who live near Bank Chambers to have to put up with the noise when prayers start very early in the morning and late at night, when they have to go to work and their kids have to go to school.

I know that the Graham Spicer Institute in new Malden is also used as a mosque on Fridays. 

Dr Who ????????? said...

OH dear........here we go again. To all those people who said ''what mosque, there will be no mosque, it's a fictional mosque.......WHERE ARE YOU NOW? Wake up and smell the coffee. These intolerant people who want this building DO NOT want to intergrate with us but want to force their ways onto us. Their children are told islam is fact from the day they are born so they have no choice. They HATE ALL Jews, they HATE ALL HOMOSEXUALS [even tho some of them are secretly gay].......in fact they hate anything that is not muslim. This building will change Worcester Park for ever & to those of you who say good, could you please leave your name & address so we can pass it on to these people as an alternative place to build this building next to. I have met some really nice muslim people so it would be wrong to say ALL muslims but why should even a small number of people force what they want onto us, yet not accept any of our ways? It is not just about traffic or location it's about living by OUR RULES , the rules we all must live by in this over crowded island. The Morden mosque is just down the road but we are told it's the wrong kind of mosque so these intolerant people wont even share with their brothers and sisters. Does this mean we have to have loads of differant mosques for all the differant interprataions of islam? Please go to the Morden mosque be friends with your brothers & sisters & leave us Worcester Parkers to get on with our all ready busy lives and if you want to live with us and intergrate.......WELCOME. Now i'm off to enjoy a bacon sarnie down the cafe........WANT TO JOIN ME?

Guest said...

 You are quite right, however it is a country with a Christian heritage and culture and that does matter to the vast majority who do not like to see large parts of our towns and cities become enclaves to what most consider an alien culture.

Dr Who ????????? said...

Claire, i too am of no religion & do not believe all those fairey storys in books that were writen by man back in the days when we knew no better. I can assure you that these worshipers will not deter these young drugies in fact i can see BIG problems for the worshipers from these guys. If the worshipers push them too far i can see them trashing the building as these young thugs could not careless about anything but themsilves. Makes me wonder if the worshipers know much about that area in which they want too build there mosque. 

4PS said...

Personally I would prefer the place turned into a brothel or a casino or maybe a bit of both....

Duchess 2000 said...

There is precious little car parking in Worcester Park and if these spaces are taken by users of the Mosque it will be another nail in the coffin for the local traders in the High Street who cannot rely purely on non car using shoppers.  Unfortunately Worcester Park seems to be a thorn in the side of Sutton Council who seem to sanction anything put before them in the Planning Department without thought for the local infrastructure.  The amount of housing on The Hamptons being one of them. 

Local Resident said...

The Planning Application states that there is nearby parking and good transport so there should be no real problems caused by worshippers to the mosque.  The one and only car park in Worcester Park can be a nightmare at the best of times let alone increase the demand on these parking spaces it will be yet another nail in the coffin for local traders.  Sutton Council seem to have a cavalier attitude to Worcester Park and have no regard for the infrastructure of the community.  Why else would they have sanctioned so many houses to be built on The Hamptons putting a strain on local services.  It remains to be seen if they will listen to the traders and local residents on this issue especially in relation to increased traffic flow and limited parking or just do what they are very good at signing off on Applications and hang the consequences. 

Shelokay said...

I glad to see so many against this... i find it very sad that the few who feel it is ok to have a mosque there have then played the "racist" card... Its very sad to think that because this is something to do with a different culture and colour the racism card is played.. so we feel our hands are tied if we oppose.. I am far from racist as i have a mixed race son, yet i oppose this on grounds of the chaos it will cause!

Teatime said...

I've just moved here from Morden where I lived for many years. As soon as the mosque was built the community dynamics changed immensely. I didn't see the need for a mosque at the time however once built there was a complete influx and no integration. 

The local infrastructure in Morden suffered as a result, WP will not be able to cope.

Katie4 said...

Everyone posting here must also write letters objecting to the council ASAP there is only one week left to let the council know how strongly you feel re this application for a Mosque. Do it now and don't delay.

Stand Together said...

Everybody needs to sign one of the Petitions, lodge their objections via the Council website and tell all their friends.  Over the last couple of days I was surprised how few people knew about this Planning Application or how close the closing date for objections is getting.  If we are not pro active now we will only have ourselves to blame if the Council "in their wisdom" green light this Application.

Schrodinger said...

Sounds oddly similar to Christianity to me...

Nichu said...

Firstly, it does seem an odd location for a facility to be used by lots of people all day, every day. As others have pointed out, there is already congestion at that end of Green Lane, mainly caused by people dropping off lazy people on the double yellow lines for the station. In spite of the excellent public transport in Worcester Park, most people do seem to drive to the high street. So this will make it worse. I am pretty certain that people who have visited the vacant building recently have parked on the grass, near the athletics club and the former flower shop.

Secondly, most of the families consulted in the documents seem to be Muslim families who live in New Malden. With such a small Muslim community in Worcester Park, it does seem odd to want to build such a large facility here, rather than in New Malden. Although this is no grounds for objection, the strength of anti mosque feeling that I've noticed on here and on the high street over the last few days suggests that if this project were given the go ahead, there could be rough times ahead in terms of acceptance and integration.

In light of this, if this were to go ahead, I would hope that there will be an increased police presence in the area (I suppose the council tax bill will have to go up at some point).

Surharris said...

You are so right , please give US some res
Ect, we do not want a mosque in Worcester park, go build it someplace else!!!!!

Sueharris said...

Let's get something done before its too late, a meeting of all residents in wp because it will affect the whole community, needs to be set up before it is too late, this is a serious issue and will affect the whole area!

Sueharris said...

Please can we Ll get together to stop tos ridiculous mosque, we all need to contact Sutton maybe?

Sueharris said...

Should we not get a meeting together with councillers, press dtc to stop this

Sueharris said...

Well ,ets sop it happening, a meeting is called. For

Old Blackshirt said...

The decision by a handful of Muslims to try to open a mosque in Green Lane was a bad decision but even in this age of corrupt local government the mosque will NOT get planning permission because it would add to the horrendous traffic mayham we all know about. What's really amazing is how all these vitriolic, hate-crazed atheists and God-haters come leaping out of the woodwork and try to hijeck this issue by attacking all religions in general and all Muslims in particular.

You had the chance to stop this country becoming a multi-cultural nightmare years ago but your apathy stopped you making a brave stand so you must now live with the consequences of the occupation.

Just accept there are good and bad in all religions and races and stop demonising all Muslims, you might learn something from them - the real culprits are politicians who for decades have betrayed the aboriginal British people with their open invitation to the world to come and live here.

DT said...

 If you read the planning application, they conducted a traffic survey (only one) showing that at the time of the survey, parking bay occupancy was between 95 and 100%. i.e. close to saturation as the bays have to become empty before they can be reoccupied.  They then calculated that if the building was used as an office (at full occupancy) and used as a Mosgue at the figure of seven or so people per prayer session it would in fact reduce the effects on parking in comparison.  They also ignored that many of the available bays were controlled parking, e.g disabled bays etc.

Needless to say they drew the conclusion that it would have no impact on parking, i.e. the survey and its conclusions were flawed in the extreme.  Perhaps the best approach is to demand that the Council carry out its own Traffic/ Parking consulation in Worcester Park.

There doesn't appear to have been a noise impact assesment, Not being a Muslim myself I don't know whether the below is true (Wikipedia) and relates to the particular sect in question.

The adhān (Arabic: أَذَان‎ [ʔæˈðæːn]), or azan, is the Islamic call to prayer, recited by the muezzin at prescribed times of the day. The root of the word is ʼḏn أَذَن meaning "to permit"; another derivative of this word is uḏun, meaning "ear".

Adhan is called out by the muezzin in the mosque five times a day, traditionally from a minaret, summoning Muslims for mandatory (fard) prayers (salah). A second call known as iqama
(set up) then summons Muslims to line up for the beginning of the
prayers. The main purpose behind the multiple loud pronouncements of adhan
in every mosque is to make available to everyone an easily intelligible
summary of Islamic belief. It is intended to bring to the mind of every
believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its
spiritual ideology. In modern times, loudspeakers have been installed on minarets for this purpose.


I would expect that the residents of Green Lane would be delighted to be woken at 4:00 am on Summer's morning or the kids woken at 11:00 pm by loudspeakers blasting out.

Beverley Gardens Resident said...

someone has mentioned the drug dealing on the end of green lane.. i have often wandered why there is no cctv camera there! especially to reinforce the box junction as people often block this causing chaos for those trying to get out of green lane..
tommy has made the best points yet.. 

Sigh said...

What exactly is an "aboriginal British person"?

Axlrocky said...

notice how quiet your "lib-demi-god" Burstow is on this subject - you reap what you sow - you people voted lib dem - this is what you get

David said...

The Planning Application shows that the applicant does not know the area.
As just one example, a number of bus routes are identified, but three of them are school buses running just once a day, in term time, so entirely irrelevant. The S3, despite stopping right outside (hail and ride) is not mentioned. Nor is the X26, from Heathrow.
Why would someone who does not know Worcester Park wish to open a Muslim place of worship here?

Beware calling it a "mosque". Chambers Dictionary defines a mosque as "a Muslim place of worship", but "a Muslim place of worship" need not be a mosque - doesn't that imply the use of a minaret, with all the associated caterwauling?
A Mohammedan does not need "a place of worship" in order to pray. He simply kneels in obeisance, facing towards Mecca, and performs whatever actions and recitations are required.

David said...

"Their mosque is out of bounds for us"
What a remarkable statement!
It serves to illustrate the sectarianism which non-Muslims associate with Mohammedanism.
Would I, as a Practising Atheist, ever be barred from entering an English church? Of course not.

"happen to have a strong hub"
Well I don't think it just "happened" - it looks like a carefully planned intrusion.

As to "intolerance" - I have no time for any religious institution which attempts to control human beings by playing on their primitive superstitions, segregates the sexes and condemns homosexuals. The latter are just as prevalent in the "Muslim Community" (whatever that is) as anywhere else, and just as deserving of respect.
The quote I opened with is proof of where the intolerance is rooted.

Sunshine said...

Did anyone-else see that the sign (Site notice) on the proposed mosque giving notice of plans to locals has been missing since last Tuesday night - thats nearly a week - funny that!
The sign by the local residents association has also been removed from the post by the chip shop pretty quick - funny that! Obviously they are not interested in locals opinions.
I would have thought it was a statutory requirement to have a site notice on display for a set time giving notice. I wonder if Sutton Council will now extend the consulatation period because the correct proceedure has not been followed. I bet if I was building an extension it would.
Also, in the application they are stating they will recommend to the their 'congregation(?)' that they use car park spaces in the lay-bys in the high street and Waitrose car park (which incidently was absolutely full today).

AG said...

Is there a petition to sign online?

Dr. Who ??????? said...

oh dear .......here we go, the old lefty shout of racist, hate-crazed atheists & god-haters..........GET A LIFE MAN. Just because we don't believe in their god fearing, i want 75 virgins fairy storys does not mean we can't have a voice. It's people like you shouting ''racist' every time we put our point of view across that has left this country in the mess we are in. WE all accept there is good & bad in all parts of society, we have allowed them to live here and have there silly racist religion BUT [SOME OF THEM] REFUSE TO LIVE BY OUR RULES. Nobody is demonising any muslims BUT if they live with us they must play by our rules. i.e. NOT CLOGGING GREEN LANE UP WITH MORE TRAFFIC. That is the issue here so take your silly racist card and stick it where the sun don't shine and stop letting people on here have the right to FREE speech..........remember not ALL muslims are terrorists but ALL terrorists have been muslim...............PEACE TO YOU ALL XXXX

Concerned Local said...

I have just gone and signed the petition objecting to this planning permission being granted. I am now writing to Paul Burstow and submitting the form above as suggested. This is certainly not the right location for such a facility -
If you read this and object you really do need to:1) sign the petition - head down to Pet's Place, Woodward Bros butchers, Centrals Bar or Ross' Fruiterers)2) Write to our local MP with a letter of ObjectionPaul Burstow, 234 Gander Green Lane,Cheam,SM3 9QFpaul@paulburstow.org.uk 020 8288 65503) Write to our local Council with a letter of Objection via the link in the blog entry above.You must object to stop this!

KM said...

For anyone thinking of moving to WP, I'd like you to know that we're not all racist idiots like Wayne here.

Dr. Who ??????? said...

EXACTLY.........religion is the root of ALL evil. ONE LIFE LIVE IT i always say. People are being killed this minute in the name of some sort of religion, thinking they are going to a better place........OH DEAR, WHY in the modern world would you believe this rubbish. All religion is the same ''believe in me, believe in him, you will go to hell, burn all women as wiches, kill yourself and get 75 virgins...COME ON PLEASE this is the 21'st century have you not a brain of your own........god help us..ooops now i'm doing it .......peace xxx  

Dr. Who ??????? said...

Unbelievable. As a person of no religion i am appalled at your intolerance. Just to educate you, you now live in England. Here we have freedom of speech and the freedom to hold what ever faith you wish, unalike any muslim country. Would i be aloud to open an office that tells everybody there is no god, would my wife be aloud to walk out in her shorts and t shirt......NO because of the intolerant countrys that muslims come from. You have moved here because of our tolerance but we can also have our say. LISTEN .....this disagreement has got nothing to do with your religion or the mosque, it is about the location & concerns about the traffic. It is a locall issue that we are worried about even if you don't like it. Everybody knows that the worshipers will use cars, everybody knows that it WILL BE 24/7 AND EVERYBODY KNOWS, like at the Morden mosque it WILL cause traffic problems. SO Tweetz you are a locall resident, put yourself in our position and hand on any holy book you like, DO YOU NOT SHARE OUR CONCERNS or are you only interested in yourself and YOUR religion.
So please learn a little about the locall residents before you FORCE your mosque on us...........PEACE XXXX 

Guest said...

My concern is for the lack of provision of disabled persons' access and parking outside the building, although I note there is adequate provision of facilities inside.  

Chloe said...

make sure Sutton Council know the sign is missing; I work in a neighbouring council library and if we do not have statutory notices available on request (or someone claims they were not able to view it) then that can be used as a reason for the app/traffic order etc to be thrown out.

Lauraannebrown said...

If only people got angry enough to protest about the poor transport in Worcester Park.

Then you wouldn't be able to disguise your ignorance behind the lack of parking, the traffic, the antiquated road system. Imagine!

Quite happy to grumble quietly about that, aren't we NIMBYs of Worcester Park? But let a group of 140 muslims worship in your town; oh the outrage!

Old Blackshirt said...

Dr Who? should realise that although we have free speech incitement to religious and racial hatred is illegal and he would do well to remember that. After reading his latest post (complete with capital letters) I can only say of him that there's enough material there to keep a team of psychiatrists busy for a year.

Sigh - An 'aboriginal British Person' is someone whose family and ancestors have lived here since anyone can remember.

Dr Who ?????? said...

What are you blabbering on about Laura you sound like a typical wishy washy lib/dem .......we have a fair train station, buses conecting us with Kingston and Sutton & an excellent S3 service connecting Malden Manor to Sutton and beyond. THE PROBLEM with the transport system is IT'S ALL STUCK IN THE FLIPPIN' TRAFFIC...........THAT'S THE PROBLEM, and your idea is MORE traffic to apease the minority BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could you please leave your address so 140 muslims can park on your drive...........PEACE XXXX

Susanharris said...

We object to the mosque because of:-
It is impossible to get our of Green Lane and even worse to get out of Longfellow as it is

Parking in both roads is impossible even for residents who LIVE in the roads and pay their council tax

Ramadan is a WHOLE MONTH - a tremendous time to have late nights etc

Why should we have in Worceser Park a place, any place, that people who  livei n the tow are excluded from? 

This is a total sham and why have it here when there are many many more suitable places for it, where traffic is easier, why not rent some of the buildingont he A3 (Tolworth Towers) that would not affect any residents?

Please every9one write to Paul Burstow, we need to get this stopped asap

Paul.Burstow.2nd@parliament.uk







 

Richard Blythe said...

We HAVE to stop this the traffic will be even worse, we cannot park near our houses as it is, and this might mean we can't even park in our roads where we reside and pay to live

Also there are the opening times.......if a pub has to shut at 11.00 how can they START worship at 11.00 for instance...and then during the MONTH long Ramadan it could be absolute hell.   People will be woken up at all times of the night.......do we really want that

Why as residents of WP are we even thinking of allowing this?    wE ALL NEED TO GET TOGETHER TO stop THIS NOW.   Would The WP residents association be preared to host a meeting, we could all put in  say £5 a couple of fund cost of a hall hire or whatever is needed?

This is a totally ridiculous place for a religious place, whatever religion, there is just not the infrastructure for cars, and the buses don't opersate late at night so how do they propose to get home...by car - Morden has terrible traffic around the mosque for instance............

This particular place does not have the infrastructure for additional cars, buses, and noise late at night or early in the morning

It is time for people to protest, and we really must before it is too late

thank you everyone 

Dee said...

The biggest failure, in this regard, of modern society is the lack of cohesion: we are individualistic to the core. Neither is this shown to be undesirable or morally apprehensible - in fact it is encouraged. This is endemic, particularly here in the suburbs: we only need to look at our high-street, past its glory years and in general decay.



We only gain cohesion at times like this, when we seem threatened, especially when a seeming cohesive group encroach in our locality. Note it is not a dig at Muslims or Mosques; it would be similar (although opposition not as virulent) if the universally condemned Scientologists were to build a 'Church' here. Thus the problem of reproach - we are only identified by our united distaste of this idea: this only leads to destruction, it will tear us apart.  



If there is hope, the incumbent will be replaced by the young and we will regain a local identity. There are various examples of this, for instance the great volunteers that helped clean up near the railway line, and in local businesses, such as the fruiters. We need to encourage this, as well as invest in the wellbeing of our youth - facilities here are desperately lacking.



This failure is partly our apathy and partly policy decisions by our beloved council: as ever, the first step to the cure is admitting we do have a problem - and then taking the responsibility - all of us - to make sure Worcester Park is a great place to live!

ENGLISHMAN said...

You have missed the point, it's not a case of being racist, it's a case of not wanting this country to be overun by a faith that is totally intolerable to any other faith.
Everytime they get something rejected, they shout about us being RACIST because they hope some PC idiot will respond.  It's the people who keep calling other people RACIST who incite racial tension.  If they shut up, people would accept things without so much prejudice.
 

Dharmesh M Bhatt said...

The biggest failure, in this regard, of modern society is the lack of cohesion: we are individualistic to the core. Neither is this shown to be undesirable or morally apprehensible - in fact it is encouraged. This is endemic, particularly here in the suburbs: we only need to look at our high-street, past its glory years and in general decay.



We only gain cohesion at times like this, when we seem threatened, especially when a seemingly cohesive group encroach in our locality. Note it is not a dig at Muslims or Mosques; it would be similar (although opposition not as virulent) if the universally condemned Scientologists were to build a 'Church' here. Thus the problem of reproach - we are only identified by our united distaste of this idea: this only leads to destruction, it will tear us apart.  



If there is hope, the incumbent will be replaced by the young and we will regain a local identity. There are various examples of this, for instance the great volunteers that helped clean up near the railway line, and in local businesses, such as the fruiters. We need to encourage this, as well as invest in the wellbeing of our youth - facilities here are desperately lacking.



This failure is partly our apathy and partly policy decisions by our beloved council: as ever, the first step to the cure is admitting we do have a problem - and then taking the responsibility - all of us - to make sure Worcester Park is a great place to live!

4PS said...

Was that a yes or no or maybe?!

Dr Who ?????? said...

DHARMESH M BHATT.......what are you on about, are you one of the drugies who ply there trade behind this building? HOW are they a cohesive group when they HATE Jews, HATE homosexuals, HATE young girls having freedom,Force there woman to marry strangers, HATE any other religions, HATE our way of life [pub culture] in fact HATE LIFE AS WE KNOW IT as they think there is a better place here after......Please take your religious preaching to the weak people who believe your rubbish. WE ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT TRAFFIC......that is all so please all you left wing wishy washy lib dem euro types GO AWAY and let us discuss the issue at hand. It is now quiet clear that a lot of people don't even know the area we are talking about. It is a small two storey building on the busiest junction in Worc. Pk that will be filled [a lot of the time] with over a hundred people. Stop trying to make this a race issue and i ask ALL local muslims to put hand on heart and say they can't see our concerns about the traffic. You can't tell me that you would be so selfish as to put your mosque BEFORE the wishes of the majority of the residents, who's concern ........IS THE TRAFFIC.............PEACE XXXXXX 

Hettie said...

Having quickly read the planning application I was surprised by some of the reasons listed under the heading





















Need for a a mosque within Worcester Park




5.10 There are hundreds of Muslin families living within
Worcester Park and surrounding areas. There are for mosques located with five
miles radius from the application site.
Four mosques within a five mile radius certainly seems sufficient. This point is also contradictory as it states there are hundreds of Muslim families living within the local area. If this is the case where does the figure of so few Muslims who would use the new proposed mosque come from?


5.16 The site provides enjoys good public transport
facilities. Frequent services to Wallington, Sutton, North Cheam,
Kingston,Wallington, Ashtead, Epsom, London Waterloo, Dorking, Guildford and
numerous towns and areas in between.
If the proposed mosque is only going to be used by a small number of local people as the application states why is it deemed necessary to list ease of accessability to many other areas some of which are far from Worcester Park.


5.18 A Transport Assesment and Travel Plan. All parking
generated by the proposed mosque would be able to be acoomadated within the
town centre car park.
As previously stated by numerous other objectors, Worcester Park is already close to saturation point regarding parking. Parking in Waitrose car park is often difficult especially at certain times of the day. The worse being, after morning school time drop offs. lunchtimes and after schools finish. These are some of the times that the proposed mosque would be used, which would further increase the problem.


Access


The site has a safe, easy and convenient access via Green
Lane.
Green Lane simply cannot absorb any more traffic. It is more than struggling to cope with the present levels. I would also be very surprised if cars not being able to park simply stop in Green Lane to allow passengers to get out and attend the proposed mosque. The consequences of this would be horrendous and certainly not what I would consider to be safe. I would also refer to my previous point regarding Prayer meetings taking place at school starting and finishing times. There is a school in Green Lane. Not all families are in walking distance and need to drive their children to school. Once again at these busy times of the day the timings will clash, making Green Lane even more busy.
As I stated at the beginning I picked up on these points after only a quick read of the proposal. I'm certain that when I read the whole document thoroughly I will have many more concerns. I personally do not believe this is a viable proposition nor is it in the best interest of the residents of Worcester Park. In light of the great deal of  public concern I cannot see how Sutton Council could even consider saying yes to this proposal and would be shocked if they choose to ignore it.
I shall also be writing to Paul Burstow and Sutton Council.
I am unable to sign any of the petitions at the present time and would be interested if anyone knows of a way I can do this online.

spudman said...

dharmesh my friend......you say  ''if there is hope , the incumbent will be replaced by the young'', that is true if the young have a free mind.....no indoctrination from so called religious betters. But muslim young are indoctrinated with YOUR views so they hold the same views as you, THEY can not speak from a free mind.....they have no choice. So the young should be from this island, of all faiths [including muslim] BUT THE PROBLEM for you is...........our young are not indoctrinated, they are free spirits to make there own minds up. Muslims have come here because of the religious conflicts in thier own lands caused by differences of oppinion of their own religion...now it is starting here. Why are muslims the only group trying to force thier religion on to the rest of us.........YOU my friend should try and intergrate with the local population and try and find your true self WITHOUT religious indoctrination. OF all the religions in this world, including athiests.....only one can be right, so dharmesh what if yours is wrong and you have wasted your life on nothing. Have an open mind my friend, forget all that was drummed into your brain when you were too young to question and use your brain NOW and you will find a whole new world out there, but sadly we are only here for a brief time so be quick .......... 

Lucyirvin3 said...

So the IRA were Muslims???
seriously that is ridiculous!

Happy-girl said...

I quite agree (and far from grumbling quietly, have put my complaints in writing to the council) about the lack of on street parking, the over pedesrianisation, and the ridiculous traffic management through Worcester Park, which has been infinitely worse since it was "upgraded".
I will also be complaining about the proposed Mosque... Quite right "Not In My Back Yard"!! If I wanted to live near a Mosque I'd move there....and I don't, that's why I live here!
I know a couple of Muslim families, a Chinese family lives next door, and we also have Irish, Korean and Turkish neighbours.....no problem with that.....if, (like I did) they like the area, and want to become part of / contribute / integrate into the established community, then fantastic, and if they need to worship, then there are numerous places in which to do that..... Muslims can travel the relatively short journey to Morden.
I want to do Bikram Yoga.... I have to travel to Wimbledon....TOUGH!

Dereks said...

If we are woken at that time we will have to call the police for noise abatement, we have to stop this proposal before it gets to that stage, it truly is absurd and a complete I justice to local residents who already cannot park near their front doors or even leave their roads to go to work to pay for said front doors!!!!!!!!!! It just cannot be allowed

katie4 said...

The plans also show other mosques prayer timetables which all include one around 5.30pm -6.00pm the evening rush hour and further research shows all mosques have this prayer time.
So why has this time been left off the application!

Richard Blythe said...

The planning application as you say Hettie is completely ridiculous and this building just cannot be allowed for this usuage.    Apparently it was turned down a few years ago to be an accountancy office - far more suitable, but if it was turned down for that how can they possibly allow a mosque - unbelievable!!!!!!!      
 
Also why are people getting so het up about people objecting to a Mosque.   It is quite a normal thing to object too.    There will be increased traffic coming from other towns.....the traffic is horrendous as it is so a normal concern and why can't people in WP go to one of the mosques in the area already, they knew there wasn't one in WP when they moved here!
 
Also the timings of said Mosque - again normal for people to object.
 
Personally have no religious beliefs at all....but that is not why we are objecting to the Mosque, it is that this is COMPLETELY the wrong place for one off a busy high street right in the middle of a residential area!   The car parks arewa already full!    We do not want this mosque in Worcester Park, and nor should it be allowed to be here

Hettie said...

 Just to update my earlier post. I have received a response from Paul Burstow MP and I quote 'Please note that there is a strict Parliamentary rule within the House of Commons that MPs may only act upon issues raised by their own constituents.' As I live in the part of Worcester Park where it becomes Kingston it he is unable to represent me.  Central Road is my main shopping area and I am directly affected daily by the traffic flow and parking problems there already. I assume if I contact the MP for Kingston I will receive a response saying that the Green Lane area does not fall under his jurisdiction so that he will be unable to help either. It appears that I fall in no mans land! I feel very strongly that I have a right to be represented in this. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how I can be heard?

Susanharris said...

Hettie below is so right and thank you for pointing these things out..however wonder if Sutton will actually take these points into consideration......they obviously haven't when preparing the application - very very worrying that they have got it so so wrong and have no idea what is going on in one of their suburbs.....do they know about the traffic at all?   Very very scary

MrJones said...

I think the point is, two phases of the Hamptons went ahead with insufficient protest.  WP traffic was already at saturation point when that got built.  There were mutterings about traffic but no one reacted to that the way they seem to be reacting to this. 

I entirely agree that the transport infrastructure is struggling; the grass covered by-pass that everyone has suddenly become aware of again, yes it should have been built but wasn't; the trains are always packed; the platforms dangerously busy; the drive from the top of the high street to the A3 can take 45+ minutes, etc, etc.  All these points are valid, but the sheer anger of protest - it isn't even thinly-veiled racism in some cases. 

The people who have applied for planning permission have already shot themselves in the foot by denying it, removing websites, changing their story and massively contradicting themselves in their planning application.

The counter-argument needs to be measured, objective and without emotion as it's blindingly obvious to anyone that this application doesn't have a leg to stand on.  Jumping up and down, wailing and bringing religion in to it can only harm the cause and allows racism to be dragged in to the equation, which then completely detracts from the real issue.

Susanharris said...

and by suggesting they use the lay by car parks this will stop people wishing to use the shops parking and further decline business.           Everyone really does need to wake up to this proposal and fast....... I have myself complained to Sutton council and Paul Burstow.  We really really cannot have a mosque in WP and why should we. 

Bobjohnston said...

We do not drive to the station to drop people off, we try and drive to our place of work!!!!    But often cannot because of the traffic in the High Street.    This is no place for a mosque and if the people of New Malden want one, let it be built there!!!!!

Powderpuff said...

Woodward Butchers

concerned? you bet I am! said...

I have only just found out about this planning application, and as it would effect the local community and not just immediate neighbours I think that more people should be made aware
of what's going on.
I also find it very strange that the period of objection is when a lot of local people will be on their holidays and the first they will know of this is when it's up and running.

Tweetz said...

Wow this is Islamaphobia at it's best. I'd like you all to read the comments below and substitue the word 'Muslim' with 'Jew' and then re evaluate what some have you have posted. I'm embarrassed that I live amongst so many bigots and racists who sadly think it's acceptable to talk about a minority group in this way.
I accept traffic is a problem but in reality most of you have admitted the building being used as a Mosque is a bigger issue than the possible increase in traffic.
Wake up people and a get a grip, I thought I lived in WP not Nazi Germany in the 40's.

Hmmmm....... said...

While I agree with the traffic issue, I am not signing as I am not convinced that this isn't a race/religion issue.  Let's be honest here....WP does seem to be a bit of a racist area IYKWIM;)  I had the pleasure of overhearing one lady's conversation in Sainsbury's Local the other day, which went along the lines of "Well I've lived in Worcester Park all my life...." and something along the lines of how the area will change, etc (no mention of traffic) and SHE was handing out the petition!!

I don't suppose it'll go through anyway.

Dr Who ?????? said...

OH DEAR..........the tree huggers are trying to jump on the band wagon by calling us names. Blackshirt [blackshirts were a racist group during WW2 , so that's a poor name to pick my friend] this is NOT about religion.....I REPEAT NOT ABOUT RELIGION, it's about location. Drive your wind powered car down to green lane, when you decide to get up , and you will see the location on the busiest junction in Worcester Park is NOT the ideal place for this building. The Hamptons, Royal Mail, Britsh Telecom, Worcester Park Athletic Club, Green Lane school ALL use this junction and on some days traffic builds back to lincoln road so any more traffic here is going to be murder. There was not one piece of constructive argument in your post....so why bother. I know we have freedom of speech so you can say what you think, but imagine if the BLACKSHIRTS had won power........you would have been shot...........PEACE XXXXXX

Dr Who ?????? said...

Richard......very well put, i get so angry when other people hijack this debate and start calling everyone racist. I thought those days were behind us but no, as soon as we argue about something like this they wake up. This issue is about location and traffic.......that's it end of. WELL put, infact i wish i had written it like that but i get too cross....PEACEXXXXXX  

Wpower said...

Muslims are not a race!!! It's a religion the same as any other religion!! But please don't allow this mosque to be built, they have a massive one 10 mins down the road in Merton!!

Dr Who ?????? said...

Tweetz...look at the bigger picture, you have admitted there is a problem with the traffic but you still want the building there. You my indoctrinated friend still refuse to see the point, this building is unsutable for ANY place of worship. I repeat ANY PLACE OF WORSHIP........I have no problem with any religious sects, if that's what rings your bell but please out of respect for the rest of us you must see the problem. You said you can't use the Morden mosque because they are different is that not intolerance ?
Wake up Tweetz and get a grip, you live in WP with the rest of us, don't be selfish and just think of yourself. We have to all fight our way through the traffic morning & evening and your not helping. OH and why substitute muslim for Jew, how does that solve the traffic problem. You are not reading the posts just skimming through them to find something you don't like, MOST posts are about the traffic problem so if you are a Worcester Park resident please join us and sign the petition saying NO TO MORE TRAFFIC..........PEACEXXXXXX

Imran Ahmad said...

I'm actually quite shocked by the level of Islamaphobia shown by a lot of comments in this forum. I have lived in Worcester Park with my wife and two young daughters. I really thought was a tolerant place which would be great for bringing up my family. Could I really be very wrong? I actually feel very sad about this.

Some of the comments I can put down to ignorance. I read one comment about there already being a big 'Baital Futuh' mosque being only 10 mins away by road. This place of worship is not a recognised form of Islam. There beliefs are fundamentally different to the majority of the muslims who live into this country. I cannot go to this so called mosque.

I completely understand people may object to the mosque on the grounds on traffic. I think this is a wider issue in Worcester Park.

It is all about the parking said...

Following on from Hettie, does this mean that householders living on the Sutton/Kingston Worcester Park borders will not have any of their objections to the parking/traffic implications of this Application taken note of and that any objections made direct to Sutton Council will be dealt with along the same grounds as Paul Burstow's response to non Sutton residents.  If this is the case, will the Petition in support of the Application have the vast majority of signatures disregarded as they also live at addresses in the Kingston part of Worcester Park, some even as far afield as New Malden?  Will in fact any Sutton Councillors get themselves down to Worcester Park and spend a day monitoring traffic and the Stone Place car park?  They can then see for themselves, first hand, that first and foremost this whole emotive issue is firmly based in major traffic/parking issues.  Please all stop playing the racist card.  The premises in Green Lane has ZERO parking which means it was never intended for multiple occupancy whether offices or community centre.

Nick said...

Why are people using the building already planning permission has not been granted. At 9.00pm I saw a group of six people enter the property and and come out 25 minuets later, this is happening every night.

Harrysmythe said...

Well..". Move somewhere where they do have your type of mosque!!!! WhIch mosque have you been going to since you and your family have been living in Worcester park, why not continue to go there!!!!!!!!

Realist said...

Don't be an idiot, you yes you are turning this into a religios racist thing!!!!! And people wonder why religion is basically the cause of all wars!!! Hardworking people that have managed to buy a house in w park just want peace and quiet and to be able to park without a noisy mosque at all hours - which quite frankly is not a lot to ask, sadly it is the mosque that is causing disruption and disharmony not the other way around. Please respect the wishes of the residents of Worcester park and you have enough mosques already in the area to visit, with your wife (oh are they allowed!!) and you knew there was no mosque when you moved here!!!!

Nikko said...

Tweetz, well done, only 90 posts and Godwin’s Law comes into
play. Protesting against a mosque, whether by signing a petition or posting on
this blog, hardly compares with the genocide of approximately 6 million Jews, and
if you think otherwise, then you are seriously mistaken. Although there might
be racism in Worcester Park, it is hardly on the scale of Nazi Germany. However,
if I’ve somehow missed businesses being confiscated because of the owners
beliefs or race, the development of ghettoes and concentration camps, and the
destruction of all opposition to the Lib Dems, then please let me know via this
blog; I’m sure that the majority of people in Worcester Park will protest
against those things as well.



Further, I think that you are being somewhat disingenuous
with your previous post (07/20/2012
11:26 PM). As you know, Ramadan does not have a fixed date, and is
11 or 12 days earlier each year. Muslim friends of mine tell me that the
morning prayers are very important as well, not just evening prayers. So
although you are correct in saying that it coincides with the summer holidays,
that only applies this year. Each year Ramadan will creep closer to the winter
months, and from mid-October until mid-March, morning and/or evening prayers
will occur in rush hour. And of course, whenever Ramadan happens to be, morning
and evening prayers are constant – just before sunrise and just after sunset –
so will always occur in rush hour in the winter months. Therefore, the
consequences of opening a mosque will be a serious (not “possible” as you
claim) impact on already bad traffic/parking problems in the summer, worse in
the winter, and much worse in the winter during Ramadan.

Imran Ahmad said...

harry in order to have an debate on this at least give an educated reply. Why should I move? You're reply just illustrates people aren't willing to engage or embrace differences in culture. I've lived in south london all my life and I don't think i've ever heard anyone tell me to move because I want to practice my religion locally. 

Realist said...

My reply was educated, yours was not!! You moved to w park knowing no mosque here, there is no room for one so continue to visit wherever you have been
Going to- that is the simple educated reply!!!!!!

Simon said...

Maybe this is a breakthrough and should be pointed out to the police maybe- unlawful use erc

Guest said...

 You are quite right this is a great place to bring up a family and local people want to keep it that way. One of the reasons it is a great place is that there is not a mosque here. If one is built it will, because of the nature of people, be a magnet for many other people of that faith to move into the area which will, in time, change its very nature, the nature that makes it a great place to bring up a family. I regret to say that although people of any faith can and do mix cultures do not, a quick look around the globe will show that to be true and the cultural differences do not have to be great, you give one example yourself, the Christian Church, like Islam and every other form of religion, is riven with hatreds so it not a good idea to create enclaves of 'difference' anywhere. It may not be a nice fact but I'm sorry to say it is true and wishfull thinking will not change it.

Adrian Short said...

There's no reason why your own MP can't write to Sutton Council on your behalf and on behalf of other constituents with similar concerns, should they choose to do so. It doesn't matter that your MP represents an area outside Sutton borough.

That said, an MP doesn't have any particular influence on this matter. You might do just as well making your comments on the application directly to Sutton Council.

Adrian Short said...

Any person directly affected by the proposal can make a comment to Sutton Council. There's no requirement for them to live in the borough.

The planning application will be decided on the merits of the case itself not on the number of people supporting or opposing it. A well-supported petition would show councillors the strength of feeling about an issue but the numbers wouldn't be grounds in itself for approving or rejecting an application.

Hettie said...

Thank you Adrian. I fully intend to contact my own MP and I have already written to Sutton Council with my comments.

DT said...

 Actually subtistuting Jew for Muslim does cure the traffic problem as Jews have to walk to get their synagogue as they are forbidden to work (or cause others to work) on Sabat and driving is considered a form of work.

chill out said...

Seriously, some of you need to get a grip.  Whilst Muslims are expected to pray 5 times a day, I think you will find it rare that people will be at the mosque for 5 daily prayers.  Sure, there will be times of the year when there will be a little more activity at the mosque, on occasions such as Eid, likewise with say Christmas.  Or like on a Friday for Muslims, and a Sunday for church goers.  One shouldn't be spiteful of those that still follow some religion. 
There's no need for all of this hate and bitterness.  Yes, there are issues with parking on Green Lane, but just like you would park in a sensible place when you go to say Iceland, I'm sure most law abiding citizens will park in a legitimate place if they were to visit the mosque.

BenjyP said...

I don't see there being any issue at all with opening a Mosque/Islamic place of worship in Worcester Park, I just don't think that the bank chambers is a particuarly good fit for any property that will be attracting large numbers of individuals multiple times a day to the Green Lane junction. I have no idea if there are any other suitable locations where parking is less of a problem/where parking could be on site, perhaps areas of North cheam which has a wealth of large and vacant premises? Any other ideas from non bigots?

Obviously the premium that is placed on real estate must make it hard to find a suitable location that balances that traffic impact on the area and I do sympathise with the need for a local facility. Ultimately people need to grow up and stop being selfish and realise the local amenities should meet all members of the local population's needs.

qwerty said...

I will no longer be reading the blog as am ashamed and appalled to read the comments by racist bigots. I thought WP was a tolerant, friendly place to live. I am now beginning to see that it is just like everywhere else.

Sueharris said...

If you think this then you are very innocent....all the other mosques in the area, yes you might wonder why have another one..cause noise chaos and disruption. Iceland is not open late at night!!!!!

Richardblythe said...

Did you
Oint this out to anyone p,ease as it needs investigating.....

Dr Who ?????? said...

Imran in order to have a debate on this at least answer the questions. Which mosque have you been going to since you moved to WP and why can you not continue to go there ? Your reply just illustrates some people are not willing to engage or embrace in our locall comunity. You must see the concerns of your neighbours or is your view ALL YOU ARE INTERESTED IN. You can't just shout and call people racist just because they have a point of view, in this case TRAFFIC......PEACE XXXXXX 

Dr Who ?????? said...

Imran.........why are we all racist and bigots but you will not share your mosques with other muslims? Surely that makes you racist and bigoted because ,in your opinion it is not a recognised mosque.Somebody else mentioned they can't use the Morden mosque, [the biggest one in Europe i was told] because it's the wrong type of mosque. How many differant kinds of mosque are there??? I admit i am not religious so i will not try and pretend i know anything about it, i also think if you want to believe in something DO IT....but this debate IS NOT about religion and you know ,hand on heart this building WILL case traffic problems. This is about everybody in the local area having concerns with the traffic.We will get people coming into the debate looking for racists, they do it in all their working lives. Please do not be dragged into that kind of debate, this is about TRAFFIC   PEACE XXXXXX

Dr Who ?????? said...

mmm interesting DT, i didn't know that, so a synagogue it is then..

guest said...

Sorry Wpower, the very tolerant in our mist say it is the wrong type of mosque

Keithjones said...

So what mosque do you. Urgently go to then? Why can you not continue to go there? Or are you just being difficult!!!!

Baffled said...

I don't disagree with some of the area's you have commented on, but you should get a grip and realise the horrendous parking problems that will be experienced with the extra volume of vehicles this place of worship will generate.   I don't know where you live but how would you feel if a place of worship moved into your road and commenced prayers at 4am and finished at 11pm during summer time.  I await your comments.

Imran Ahmad said...

is this debate about a mosque or the traffic it may cause ? most of the replies seem more anti muslim not anti traffic.

I have already acknowleged the location of the proposed mosque may not be great and I understand why people object to it on that basis alone.

Imran Ahmad said...

i think more people should be as objective as you when making a contribution to the debate.

Pieter Brundle said...

As a resident, its a valid question whether this place is a suitable venue for gatherings with respect to parking etc. Their are merits in the technical arguments and depending on the restrictions in place could go either way.

The kind of language and sentiments being expressed below has been depressing. The damage will last past the outcome, whichever way the decision goes. I suppose its a reality check as we invite the world to join us for the Olympics. All welcome as long as you leave afterwards.

SexTRex said...

Old Blackshirt says : "Dr Who? should realise that although we have free speech incitement to religious and racial hatred is illegal"Yes, you're right, we are not allowed to incite violence or offensive words against race and religious peoples (Although that law was originally set up to protect Jews from anti-semmites and muslims.)  In Dr Who?'s defence, he incited no violence physicaly or said anything offensive.   He expressed his opinion on religion in general and singled out Islam because it's the topic in hand.  Insensitvely yes, but that's his right. 
We are not all forced to enjoy organised religion and are fully empowered to express our disgust at its existence.  But we are not allowed to stand by baying with baseball bats and calling names. 
We have freedom to express personal hatred toward capitilism, socialism, political correctness, homosexuality, hetrosexuality, cross dressing, golf, the French, marmite, pigeon fancying, the beauty cult, faschism, communism, miserlyness, philanthropists, the BBC, SkyTV, and Al jazeera. Pilots, drivers, equestrians, pedestrians, bankers, wan*ers, and ocean tankers.  Scots, Krauts, Deigos and sprouts.In fact we can criticise any other way of life that people CHOOSE to adopt or are forced to adopt.  Sorry but the law doesn't mean we have to swallow religion's pill any more.  I just can't call names or attack the faithful for it.  Inflamatory cartoons are still ok. Jokes are still ok........Why did the muslim cross the road?............... because he parked his car alongside Beverley brook.  :)  (Crap joke, I know.  But I'm not a comedian)
Yes he brought out some scathing facts about Islam, points both salient and educated, but I haven't seen any muslim try and 'correct' him yet.  No, it's easier to call him racist and question his sanity. 
It is too dangerous for the state to dictate someone's personal beliefs.  That is why they are not allowed.  Personal freedoms originated in the country through toil sweat and blood.  We understand the case better than any of the middle eastern religions from any persuasion.  Don't pretend our silence is what our law makers had in mind.  Religion has had its time.  If any nation wants to advance beyond the 20th century, they have to realise that the only place for religion is in the home.  Blackshirt says: "Sigh - An 'aboriginal British Person' is someone whose family and ancestors have lived here since anyone can remember."Sigh - An 'aboriginal British person' is someone who can trace their DNA to north western europe and were the first to inhabit the British Isles after the final period of glaciation at the end of the last Ice age. 
Over the millenia our Island was invaded or settled by further European peoples.  The aboriginal Britons were pushed further west and north as continental invaders/settlers continued their push from the south and east.  Celtic settlers/invaders from Scotland who came originally from Scandanavia and Ireland pinched said peoples further to the point of Wales.  As an Anglo Saxon with some Norman and Scottish blood I do not consider myself aboriginal.  It's the Welsh who are the true aborigines of our pleasant island. I am most definitely English though as that land was later named for my people.  Should I move to another nation, let's say, Saudi Arabia......... my descendants would be Saudi Arabian of course,...... but of British descent.  Let's not get all politically correct over definitions.  Besides..... there was only one tribe of aborigines, the people that gave rise to the Etruscans, Samnites and the Romans.  Aborigine in broken latin translation means "the original people".  So no, you are not the 'original' people of this land only if you can't trace your family tree back very far. 

DT said...

 Like you I see no issue with having yet another place of worship in WP and agree that Green Lane is unsuitable because of its location right on a busy junction.  North Cheam at first sight seems like a good candidate except the vast majority of supporters of this application are in Malden and New Malden, which would mean only two bus routes would service it 213, X26, also you have to consider whether the properties are available to lease/ buy at knock down prices, which the Bank Chambers proabably is.

Little Smiff said...

Seems to me that too many people on this blog are getting involved in the minute details and missing the bigger picture. The premises at Bank Chambers should not be given permission for any change of use that will involve an increase of "traffic" whether it be pedestrian, vehicular or both. It makes no odds if the application is for a pub, nightclub, supermarket, cinema, bingo hall etc. Like many of the contributors to this blog I am a long standing resident of the Station estate and have become increasingly frustrated by traffic improvement schemes that don't actually improve anything for motorists. The road between New Malden and North Cheam has been progressively narrowed and subsequently reduced the overall speed of the traffic since the mid 1980s. This has been done by adding numerous sets of traffic lights, road islands, cycle routes, removing bus stop cut outs and the addition of numerous dwellings at places such as Parkers yard, Brabham Court and, of course, the Hamptons. Parking restrictions are not enforced effectively so Central Road is also narrowed by illegally parked cars. The application for the mosque appears to be the proverbial straw on the back of the camel for many residents. Whilst I am as adamant in supporting any objections to this planning application the residents of Worcester Park should beware. There was a massive campaign against the Hamptons but it still got built. LBS already have a precedent for allowing change of use of unsuitable buildings to "place of worship." There was a hall in Carshalton, on a major road, near a school that LBS were told would lead to traffic chaos if the change of use were to be allowed. Guess what? Yes, you're right. LBS passed the application and traffic chaos ensued.

GregoireLeGros said...

Prayer times today at the Morden mosque include 5:30 pm. I have seen police in attendance to regulate the traffic flow. And this mosque is built on a two lane urban highway !
The planning application does not show this 5:30pm time. Why not ? perhaps one of the faithful could let us know. Is it because prayer times are moveable ?
I looked at the list of signatures on the planning Design and Access Statement. Obviously they are all from supporters but should they include every member of a household including children ? It seems that many are written in the same handwriting. Are these signatures genuine or fakes ? Is there any connection with the " hundreds of Muslim families " in the neighbourhood ? Is this figure of "hundreds" invented also ? How can the truth be found ? Is it dishonest to fake signatures on a petition like this ? Perhaps one of the faithful can enlighten us.

local said...

'Yes, there are issues with parking on Green Lane, but just like you would park in a sensible place when you go to say Iceland, I'm sure most law abiding citizens will park in a legitimate place if they were to visit the mosque'..... but iceland has a dedicated car park!! And where is the available 'legitimate place' in Green Lane or nearby roads? I live round the corner and often have to drive round twice to find a parking space. Sorry, but I feel there just isn't enough parking in this area now for any building that requires parking for lots of people...

dejected said...

May I ask why, if this application came from the residents of the New Malden Muslims, why are they picking on Worcester Park ?????  Surely, having a local mosque which is what they are harping on about should be located in New Malden ???  
I can see this building going up in flames if they get permission for this mosque !!!

GregoireLeGros said...

It seems a shame that Muslims should feel victimised or discriminated against. Most people have already forgotten about the bombings in London on 7 July 2005. Also most people are not  particularly bothered about the other bombing plots ( planned by lunatic jihadist murderers ) that have been foiled by security services. I dont think we should remember these things for more than perhaps a week or so and then we should let things settle down. These horrific events are not a good enough reason for any religion in the UK in general to question itself deeply about how these ideas are born. Perhaps one of the faithful could answer ? In Kingston University there is an active Islamic movement which discusses the imposition of sharia  law in the UK and how it may be brought about. Anyone who may question this is branded as ignorant and threatened. The boys, (not grown men or women who have any experience of the world of work or taxes or voting or parenthood), who run this group believe western culture should be destroyed along with Israel. They are unaware ( we wont use the term ignorant as it is provocative ) of the idea of culture and know nothing about Britain, or the UK or its history yet they see themselves as bringing in a complete legal system. These are not of course reasons for anyone to question whether they wish to see an outpost of this faith in the middle of their community. No ! If we put these observations to one side then this religious culture has no questions to answer. Of course there is always the age old problem where people allow themselves to be led by others and told what to do. Where so many Muslims have origins in fairly tribal areas ( tribal means you support your tribe whatever the reason ) there are always going to be a few isolated cases where the ethnic ( not primitive as this is a provocative word ) customs allow public stoning and of course we constantly hear these practices condemned by the wise clerics who visit us from time to time. No again ! These are not matters which should allow us to form any judgement of Islam. Naturally ordinary residents are a little concerned about this type of culture ( nothing to do with race but to do with culture ) and the frequent arrest in the UK of young men who are encouraged in murder plots by their elders. There is absolutely no reason for Muslims to feel victimised ( all the relatives of the victims of the 2005 bombings have forgiven the crimes long ago anyway ).

Dr Who ?????? said...

Imran...you must be an MP or something, the way you scout around the questions you were asked. The replies seem anti muslim to you because that's what you want to see.......but my friend we are talking traffic here. Now please for us people who do not know......
Q1 Which mosque have you been going to since you joined us in WP ?
Q2 Why can you not continue to go there ?
 I don't supose you want to tell us as this may put a dent in your arguement........PEACE XXXXXX

GregoireLeGros said...

Is it racist to say you dont like Islamic culture and that is why you dont want a mosque in Worcester Park ? Some people seem to think we must accept, without criticism or disagreement, the religion of others. How about some of the religions practised by people from the Congolese Republic ? Should all religions be welcomed ?

GregoireLeGros said...

What law says this discussion regarding the proposed mosque can only be discussed in terms of a traffic problem ? Is it forbidden to object on any other grounds ?

GregoireLeGros said...

Imran. Have you any idea at all why people would not want a mosque in their neighbourhood ?

GregoireLeGros said...

Imran do you not see that some people may just not like Islam full stop ? Can you see that this does not make them racist ? They just dont like some of the ideas in Islam ? You have to tolerate this dislike without using personal insults in your argument such as labelling people as ignorant. Unfortunately for you and your co-religionists there are some reasons why your faith has a bad name recently. Maybe you could acknowledge this instead of adopting the position of oppressed victim.

Albion said...

If someone wanted to turn the building into a centre for paractitioners of Kindoki would it be considered racism to object? Kindoki is a form of religion practised in the Congo.

Mmeredith4531 said...

Talking rubbish. Can I ask where you live?

Guest said...

Equally, it seems that residents have been given a brief window, both during the summer holidays and at the time of the London Olympics, to provide comprehensive evidence why this planning proposal should be rejected.

If anyone wanted to get an unpopular decision through, with the least possible opposition, when the highest proportion of residents were looking elsewhere or temporarily located elsewhere, this would certainly be the time to achieve it.

Dr Who ?????? said...

HI Imran...are you ready to answer the two questions or are you still thinking about them.........PEACE XXXXXX

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

Imran, it seems you're a big fan of Tom's comments, (that's the contributor who promotes blindly accepting the planning application, its dubious data and its illogical conclusions - although he has a little trouble recognising the numbers in the application he supports). Maybe you can explain how this fits in with your desire for objectivity?

If you add the return journeys of up to 140 extra people to the same location and back, five times a day, making up to 700 extra return trips, that makes a total of up to 1,400 extra journeys. And apparently these trips will be undertaken mostly by visitors from New Malden - with only existing parking facilities at this end of their journeys.

Can you objectively explain to us how anyone can add an extra 1,400 journeys to and from Green Lane and claim there is no increase? Ta

Dr Who ?????? said...

EARTH TO IMRAN, EARTH TO IMRAN..........we are still waiting for your answers to our questions. I will repeat them just in case you missed them.
Q1 What mosque have you been using since you came to JOIN our community ?
Q2 Why can you not still go there ?
 I have a funny feeling Imran will not be back, shame i liked him........PEACE XXXXXX 
I wonder if mr happy, Tom, will like this post, i hope so he seems a cheerful chap xx 

Never forgotten said...

You must be naive to think that all the relatives of the 2005 bombing have forgiven the callous cowardly bombers or that it is in any way forgotten when every day you wake up to the realisation that a loved one has been so cruelly taken from you.

Newbie said...

I’m new to this site and actually live in the Epsom &
Ewell section of Worcester Park, but I have personal experience of dealing with
locally opposed planning applications over the last few years. Thankfully, the planning
applications were either rejected or amended and I believe this was in no small
part due to the objections of the local community.





This is a very poorly executed planning proposal where
supporting documentation appears to completely omit the fact (naturally) that
there has been a large development over the last few years which we all know
has had a hugely negative impact on traffic
flow/congestion/parking in the Worcester Park area, specifically at the bottom
of Green Lane. If the plan I rejected, I believe this will be the reason why.





Petitions are great, but nothing will compare to individual
objection submissions to London Borough of Sutton and we should also attend in
person when the application is discussed by the Development Control
Committee. I’ve emailed Sutton Council
asking when this is going to be discussed and if the public can attend and will
post their response.





However emotive this planning proposal is, we need to
concentrate on the traffic issue to achieve our objective, otherwise we will
have both the Council and our respective Members of Parliament treating us will
complete disdain. Even if the proposal is rejected by the Development Control
Committee, the proposers are bound to appeal so this will be a long haul, but
it can be done.

Lb said...

I'm not against the Muslim faith but I find it unfair that this site should be used for a mosque. Worcester park is a small place compared to others and as a resident of Worcester Park I feel it would be more beneficial if it was constructed into something that everyone resident in WP could use. I find it insulting that people are usng the racist excuse for people opposing to this. You talk about us being equals and that we're 'all human' yet it's being built for a specific religion. How is that equal? So it's ok for the rest of us residents lose out? I don't think that's very fair. I wouldn't mind if it was a bigger area like morden that has the room but Green Lane doesn't.

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

Plus the new Hamptons development is still being enlarged (from the numbers shown on this site) by 184 dwellings, of which, 175 are accessible via Green Lane - so congestion and parking is already going to get worse in KT4.


To be fair, our MP and Council actively attempted to prevent this expansion for exactly the same reasons that there are objections to the mosque, but were eventually overruled by Central Govt. However, I would like to think our MP and Council would similarly object this application, which by comparison to the Hamptons effort, looks to have been knocked up in a lunch hour, by GCSE students.
As for the planning application maps, if you look at the map showing residents supporting it as dots, it tries to show them all as local - within 1 to 1.5 km. In fact, their postcodes extend to up to 4.5 to 5.km away, where in some cases, strangely enough, (as shown by the application) there is already a mosque located nearer to them - with the bonus of parking facilities.

Steve said...

In no way at all would I ever be in favour of these plans.
Traffic around the area is already a nightmare,it's unfair to cause more chaos in a small area.
The biggest mosque in Europe is only at Morden 5-10mins away,they can go and pray there.

Bogus_data_joke_application said...

An on-line petition would be worthless, as I'm sure it would be compromised by fictional names and addresses, most likely added by those opposed to it.


Once it's submitted, the opposition will claim the petition is a fake, because it is known to be full of false names and addresses... known because those against the petition put them there!


If you look at the addresses supporting this planning application, some appear several times but at most, around 75 are in KT4. Hopefully many more than 75 will sign the petition against, which will help.


I hope most people can make it to one of our 4 local traders, who are kindly collecting signatures. [pet shop, fruiterers, butchers or the bar - at least one is open most of the day].

baz said...

This is not for the community just a select few.Therefore as a community we need to stick together and make sure it does not happen.Then again from what i have heard be it only a rumour,this application has a few "friends" at Sutton Council.They have been laying low for about 18months realising the public anger when the story first came out.What did they honestly think? That we would all forget about it and it would just slip through without any public outcry? No chance,if Sutton council approve (and they probably will) then fine.It does not mean that people are going to accept it.We may lose the battle but we will not lose the war.

Blackshirt said...

Dr Who??? I think I can prove conclusively that you are talking drivel once again when you say in a recent rant "imagine if the BLACKSHIRTS had won power...you would have been shot."
If the Blackshirts had won power I wouldn't have been shot, I would be one of those deciding if anybody needed to be shot because I was a Blackshirt. And our decision would have been to shoot nobody because it never solves anything but a lot of people, including your goodself Dr Who???, would have had to go away to the country for a while for re-education in the same way that all the German POWs in this country had to go through de-nazification before being released.
With your deep knowledge of history you will of course know that the first two official casualties of World War 2, RAF Aircraftsmen George Brocking and Ken Day, were both card carrying members of the British Union (the Blackshirts) when their bomber was shot down on September 4th 1939 (the second day of war) whilst attacking the German fleet at the North Sea entrance to the Elbe canal.
You don't seem to read anybody's posts properly or you would know that I agree that Green Lane is no place for a Mosque or any other function that would attract extra traffic. It's the snide, sneering, insulting and ridiculing way you refer to people who believe in God (Muslims, Christians and Jews) that I and others find offensive. If you want to be an atheist that's absolutely fine but it's your intolerance and thinly-disguised hatred of people who believe in God that means you need to be taught a lesson.

GregoireLeGros said...

Despite the claim
(Planning Design and Access Statement paragraph 5.1 "Need for a mosque in Worcester Park") that there is a large Muslim community in Worcester Park this is not demonstrably true and in the document ‘Muslims in London’ published by the Greater London Authority the Borough of Sutton has one of the lowest percent proportion (2.8%) of Muslims in its population. Only 4 other London boroughs have a lower proportion. Worcester Park has a lower proportion of Muslims than the Borough of Sutton taken as a whole.
There is a large community in Worcester Park but it does not identify itself except by history, residency and family ties. It is not exclusive and does not seek special status although there are many in it who would benefit from an unaligned non-religious community centre where, in the uncertain times we as a community and society face , people may come together in diverse ways and so enhance the community. This community has no wealthy benefactor who will pay for consultants to press its case and so its voice is unheard.

GregoireLeGros said...

It would be great if Muslims would stop playing up the victim status in order to get what they want. A proposal to create a centre for all the community would give the idea that Muslims are interested in integrating with the wider community.

Dave said...

l would suggest that if this planning is granted it would see a change in our local government as we have known it for many years. But it would confirm that no one cares about the traffic aspect.

SexTRex said...

Blackshirt...... you seem to have things all wrong. It's you who are associating with a dead and unwanted racist group of 'nationalists'. You say "our decision would have been to shoot nobody because it never solves anything" Oh yeah right!! Fascists haven't hurt a fly have they?
Stop looking at history through your rose tinted lenses and don't try and bring our grandfather's struggle against nazism to support your point of view. It's disgusting. Especially as most rightly hated Oswald Mosley's bunch of wannabe goose-steppers.
What you read as "snide, sneering, insulting, ridiculing" I read a deeply frustrated, upset and annoyed rant by a man whose hands are tied. As mine are too, religion's out there we have to accept its existence. Doesn't mean we have to support it. Especially when it's so obviously evil to those not indoctrinated. Remember, it's not about race, but ideology. The only reason Christians support the Muslim cause is because they fear debate with atheists and have their position eroded further as well.
Fair enough, DrWHO's eloquence leaves a lot to be desired, but he has at no point said anything offensive that couldn't be countered with wise discourse. No, instead you try and shame him into the ground, the last action of a noisy man without decent argument.

Well if you wanna take someone on in an educated battle of wits and wisdom, I am happy to act as his proxy. Bring out your history books, dress in your finest black and let's dance! You evil, goose stepping, Hitler loving, brain-wash advocating neo-nazi! Or have I got your Blackshirt leanings all wrong? Please, enlighten me.
Oh lastly, you proved nothing exept your own toxic ideology. DrWho's points remain valid even after your rant. If you say you're going to prove something, don't suddenly go off on one about how the Blackshirts were so great.

SexTRex said...

Apologies, Dr Who..... I just re-read your post that Blackshirt replied to and saw that you were adamant your main point wasn't about religion. Am sorry for muddying the waters. (I was getting crossed wires with other blog posts).
However, Blackshirt, my point remains. You want to have a pop at someone about openly displaying anti-theist comments....... Looks like your beef's with just me.
I notice you thoroughly ignored my previous corrections to your claims, further up in this thread.

BenjyP said...

I didn't want a Poundstore in Worcester Park at all, regardless of location, but that happened. Whereas the Mosque I am indifferent about, I just don't think the proposed location is at all sensible. I have no affiliation with any religions and personally find the thought of religon and ideology quite bizarre, but individuals do and should be allowed to have any faith they desire, no matter how illogical it seems to anybody else. As for any talk about the negative press associated with Islam,Christianity is pretty much as guilty in many countries of extremism, and I am not just talking about things like Catholicism in Africa, look at the crazy right wing in the US. Mitt Romney as a genuine presidential contender, that is bonkers

Old Blackshirt said...

Dr Who??? recently wrote 'Christianity is the root of all evil'. Hardly the words of someone who is tolerant of people with religious beliefs as he claims. Putting PEACE XXXXXX at the end of his poisonous postings changes nothing.
SexTRex - Oswald Mosley never killed anybody in his life. He never had anybody imprisoned or tortured or advocated torture. He never started a war or advocated a war. If only Tony Blair and George W Bush could say the same thing.
Mosley alone emerged from the Second World War with no blood on his hands. How could he - he and over 1000 of his followers spent the war in prison without charge, without trial and without right to appeal in this land of democracy? Their crime? Advocating Peace with Honour, Empire Intact and British People Safe. Sounds quaint to your ears but it would have saved 60-million lives
If he and his followers loved Hitler so much why were the first two British official casualties of World War 2 Blackshirts? Why was the first of the small ships to arrive at Dunkirk in 1940 and rescue British troops (500 in all) also manned by Blackshirts? Not exactly what you would expect pro-Nazis to do. No British Blackshirt ever goose-stepped, by the way.
Press and government saw to it that few people heard Mosley's message so people like you believe what you are told to believe about him. If Mosley had come to power there would be no dispute about a Mosque in Green Lane because there would be no Muslims here. They would all be living happily in the Arab world which would not have been turned into a killing field by westerners greedy to steal their oil.
Mosley lost. You won. So don't complain about the appalling state of the world today. It's what you voted for.

jackie.jones45@yahoo.co.uk said...

we don't need a mosque in our town apart from the traffic issue nobody seems to have adressed the issue of calling people to prayers from 4am this is a residential area and my understanding is that this is not usually allowed. Take the mosque in kingston for instance they are not allowed to call for prayers ,they only do so on fridays & then from inside.I agree with the person who brought up parking it is difficult enough to park at waitrose as it is when you need to shop , this whole application seems very underhand as the premises were bought as I understand without reference to eventually becoming a mosque & won't they need to have planning permission to change the status of the building.Fifteen to twenty people at a time ,who are they kidding.If the council grant this application they can say goodbye to re-election next time that's for sure.

Teatime said...

The liberals should never have been re-elected in the first place!

W2DP said...

As we are a supposedly ‘multi –cultural’, ‘multi faith’ society, councils
should start backing up these claims with actions. Any new premises obtained
for religious practises should be made available for all faiths and must be open to the whole community. The Muslim faith hasn’t built the best
reputation and it’s community leaders should be trying to build bridges and integrate
with other communities. The council should be promoting this ‘Multi cultural’
idea in its planning decisions. As an atheist I’m unhappy seeing any religious group trying to get a foothold in the area but everyone has a right to believe which ever adult fairy tale they
choose.





…And the traffic will be a total nightmare!

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