Friday, 9 March 2012

God Effort

Worcester Park Baptist Church is inviting  volunteers to help with with their project to spruce up the open space at the end of The Avenue over the course of the next two Saturdays. 

Kingston Council laid a new path in February and arranged for the debris on the land to be cleared and for the grassed area which had been damaged by recent civil contract works to be topsoiled and seeded.

The church's part in this community outreach project, whose strapline is 'God loves you enough to die for you' will be cutting back the trees and restoring the flower beds near the traffic lights and generally tidying up the area (pictured).

The work is planned for the mornings of Saturday 10th and Saturday 17th March and anyone who wants to pop along and lend a hand is welcome. The volunteers will be planting evergreen and colourful shrubs - and daffodils of course, which they hope will be in flower for Easter. 

The newly revamped site will then be used during the Easter weekend celebrations - Good Friday to Easter Sunday, 6th to 8th April.

Lucy Wright, Associate Minister Of The Church, explained:

""We wanted to show and share God's love with folk in the local community in a very practical way and partner with others. So we came up with the idea of restoring the open space at the end of The Avenue which had become a bit of an eyesore. "

Further details can be found at http://www.wpbc.org.uk/ 

43 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Carey Preece said...

Will they be allowing people from  the gay community to help in their restoration project? Or will they be bringing the petition currently in their foyer for the much publicised 'anti-gay marriage' vote?

Resident said...

As a practising
Atheist, who has not set foot in a church in over 50 years, I am
given to understand that "god loves everyone equally". So,
presumably, all will be welcome to participate.

Given that it is a
small plot of land, I wonder why sufficient volunteers cannot be had
from their congregation. Oh, it's a "community outreach"
project, which clearly means promulgating all their ideas.

If it's a success, as
it surely will be, I imagine they will soon extend their project to
encompass the rest of (what I believe is correctly called) Malden
Green.

In reply to the stupid said...

If I had never set foot inside somewhere, nor anywhere remotely like it in over 50 years, I suspect I could rely on virtually everyone in that community, (whether straight, gay, religious or atheist), to inform me how indisputably unwise it would be for me to make a judgement on it, since I transparently know nothing about it.
 
Similarly, if I had zero business acumen, I imagine the entire community would accept that it would be madness for me to set up a local business. Regardless of religious or sexual preferences, I believe we would all agree this to be preferable, as opposed to the public humiliation of the entire community watching my failed business venture sinking into an ocean of unsustainable debt.
 
I’ve never been inside this church, so it would absurdly stupid of me to attempt to judge it on any level. As for the concept of local volunteers from a community attempting to improve the locality for all, I can’t see any harm in that. But if I was an embittered and ignorant failure, undoubtedly I could think of at least one reason to object.

Resident said...

Over the decades I have had countless people attempt to foist their primitive superstitions and hypocrisy on me. I have no wish to hear even more of it in a church.
Your distorted logic cannot be taken seriously  - you don't need to fly in a plane to know how it works!

As Stephen Fry said on QI recently - "there is no definition of superstition which does not encompass religion". Can you disprove that?

Absolutely no objection to people improving that little patch of Malden Green, but I wonder how many of their congregation have participated, and why the project is apparently limited to that one small piece.

As to your various insults, no more need be said beyond suggesting that you do not demean yourself any further.

DT said...

 It little matters whether they bring their petition or not. It's the same as Microsoft trying to trademark the word Windows.  The word Marriage belongs to the language not any institution and if we as society want to define Marriage as the legal union of two adults then that is what it will be.

It's the same as 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints' defining Marriage as 'The union of one man and many women throught eternity', it's still illegal in the state of Utah and it was the church that had to change in the end.

It will be of course possible for Churches to refuse to marry people if it offends their practices, but as they are businesses, they charge to marry people, they will have to comply with anti-discrimination laws and there is already case law where businesses have been found to discriminate on the grounds of sexual preference.

Rowena said...

what a shame there is so much cynicism about a genuine desire for a group of ordinary people who live and work in the Worcester Park Community to want to do something for the community.  The Railway Group and the Shadbolt Park Pond Group do this successfully without criticism.  We are simply people of faith wanting to express this not by preaching but in a practical way.  Oh and newspaper article was incorrect - we were asking our own folk to get stuck in.  

In reply to the stupid said...

“Over the decades I have had countless people attempt to foist their primitive superstitions and hypocrisy on me.” This concept is known to the educated as ‘receiving an education’.
 
“you don't need to fly in a plane to know how it works!” I suspect that kind of bogus wisdom is presumably what led to the concept of ‘crash due to pilot error’.
 
“Absolutely no objection to people improving that little patch of Malden Green,” (wait for it) “BUT”… So, if you don’t object, why are you bothering to repeatedly register your rejection, in the form of uninformed, cynical contempt towards those undertaking a local community project?  
 
And since it’s plainly over your head, let me explain: the passage referring to zero business acumen was in response to the above derogatory comments by Mr. Preece (he of the failed business venture, ‘Cazbar’). It would seem his community spirit evidently evaporated at the same time as his financial incentive to poison this community’s livers with alcoholic spirit.
 
No doubt Stephen Fry is wise enough not to claim to know all the answers to life and the universe. Scientists, the world over, continue to try to discover the secrets behind its creation and explore its vastness. Meanwhile, in sharp contrast, down at the bottom of the food chain, you can’t get your head around references to the local high street.
 
To placate the local, community spirited atheists who you’ve no doubt deeply offended, I should point out that you’ve misidentified your beliefs as those of a ‘practicing atheist’. Clearly your philosophy is more closely affiliated to that of a ‘disrespectful dunce’.

Parkerilla said...

I read the first line of that last comment from "In reply to the stupid" then skipped to the last one. Did I miss anything?

Andy Fraser said...

"It would seem his community spirit evidently evaporated at the same time as his financial incentive to poison this community’s livers with alcoholic spirit."

Rather his spirit than yours numbnuts!

Carey Preece said...

How are my questions derogatory? 13years running an independent business in Worcester Park isn't a failure, I lasted about a decade longer than M&S to name but a few. Like what people eat, a football team to support or holiday destination to visit, people have a choice to 'poison' their livers. Hopefully the same choice will be given to the gay community in their wish to marry.

Carey Preece, former WP business owner, former resident of KFC Road, lover of curry, dresser of brown, drinker of beer, alright dad and all round miserable bugger....x

Trevor said...

I am taking no sides here, have no affiliation with the baptist church...
Why oh why the heavy abuse and insults thrown at Mr Preece, people have a choice, sometimes it's socially acceptable sometimes it's not, they live with that choice (and the consequences). To degrade someone who has run a pub / bar privately and done so without the problems that other local pubs have had, show a large degree of community belonging and care.
Restore the green, do it together and if you don't take part, enjoy walking past it.
Life is far too short to be that bitter ;o)

Adult said...

This is absolutely fantastic.

Parkerilla said...

the post from Adult is spam.

Parkerilla said...

If you click on the name Adult you'll see what I mean

In reply to the stupid said...

It’s very apt that you draw a comparison between M&S and your Cazbar…
 
Whilst you were criticising one community project, in contrast, M&S were doing their best to support another in Marie Curie. I suspect most of us in KT4 prefer M&S’s positive approach.
 
Cazbar failed after 13 years, whilst M&S is still in business after over a hundred …and the Baptists are still going after several hundred. A nearer like for like competitor would be Rumours. By last report, that business was also still trading… any idea why they are more successful?
 
Just maybe one secret of a successful business strategy is to concentrate on minding your own business, rather than focus on criticising more community spirited groups/members of the neighbourhood?
 
And can you tell us, how many times in your proud 13 year history that the Baptist church, Marie Curie, the local scouts or any other community group tried telling you how to run your business or what views and values your patrons ought to uphold?

In reply to the stupid said...

You accurately demonstrate the interpersonal skills of a former member of Cazbar’s clientele.

But if you pop along to the Baptist church or ask inside one of the local charity shops, you might discover that there’s more to life than looking at it through the bottom of a beer glass!

Axlwifey said...

It amazes me that the church are
representing themselves in this way (assuming of course you speak for the
church?), as fanatical militants that would rather spend time slinging mud at a
business that lasted in the limited market of Worcester Park as a private
venture not a national company (as m&s is) for 13 years. The cazbar helped raise
thousands of pounds for Cancer research (and other charities) in honour of mine and others family members and established a community
of its own. Not all who like to frequent a pub are the dregs of society, your
choices are your own but throwing insults achieves nothing but to make you look
silly.

Axlrocky said...

In reply to the stupid - anonymous abusive comments, how courageous!

Carey Preece said...

Did you actually read what i wrote? I'm thinking may be you didn't....

I have not criticised the project, I merely asked a question concerning who might or might not be attending and if a certain petition would be in tow.

Surely you can't be that silly to think i was talking about the whole of the M&S chain? I thought this was a Worcester Park blog? 
 And finally to telling people how to tun their business' or community groups, you might have to help me here as I can't quite find where I wrote anything like that.

If you don't like what I write then thats fine, share your opinion but be factual in replying to what I say.
 
Many thanks.

Jeff said...

So DT wants to force church people against their will to marry gay couples - even though they believe that "Man shall not lie down with Man as Man lies down with Woman". (Funnily enough, the Qu'uran says the same thing).

Gay couples can now obtain equal legal rights through Civil Partnership, so that's covered. What's to be gained by forcing Christians to do something their God has told them is wrong? What if they refuse?

Why stop at prosecuting them under 'anti-discrimination laws', why not burn them at the stake? That piece of green land at the bottom of the Avenue would do nicely. 

DT said...

 Jeff,

I would require churches to follow the law of the land.  If they set themselves up as a business providing marriage then they would have to comply.  If they are not a business i.e. they make no charge for any of the services they provide they can do as they wish.

I think that you are now prevented from burning people at the stake, even churches gave it up during the 17th century.

By the way there a five quotations in the bible that could be taken to be relating to homosexual behaviour, three are against, one pro and the other pro according to some readings.

That is the great thing about the bible, pick the right translation and quotation it will always support your viewpoint.

BenjyP said...

A number of the more comedic items in the bible, one of which is against homesexuality come from Leviticus (yet apparently this part of Leviticus is still appropriate) such as

Possessing slaves (as long as they are from a different nation), selling your daughter as a slave, killing people who work on the sabbath (I am unsure whether this means paid work), cutting the hair at the sides of your head, trimming your beard, eating rabbit or pork, planting 2 crops in the same field, wearing garments made of more than 1 type of cloth. Stoning people to death for blaspheming.

Also Proverbs is a great laugh if you are bored

Jeff said...

Praise the Lord for DT's eagle eyes which have spotted one, possibly two, references in the Good Book making Gay marriage in church O.K. Whereas us Jesus folk who have been reading the same book most of our lives only ever noticed the one prohibition. How could we have been so blind! So thanks to DT we no longer have to wrestle with our liberal consciences any more.

But hold on, what about our Islamic cousins, will DT's law requiring churches to allow Gay marriage apply to mosques as well? Because I've read three translations of the Qu'uaran and I reckon not even DT's sharp eyes will spot a word of approval there, just the ten or so prohibitions. So who's going to tell Muslims that from now on they must allow Gay marriages in mosques or face prosecution - or the Jews in their synagogues and schules? Do you really want to go there DT? And I really don't fancy your chances of getting the Taliban on side either.  

DT said...

 Unpaid work is allowed on the sabbath, provide it is for the benefit of the sick or infirm, otherwise it is a capital offense. So vicars beware.

The reality is that biblical interpretations do and always have changed with the times.

Perhaps Christians should just restrict themselves to the teachings known to come from the guy who smashed up temples matthew 21-12, hung around with prostitutes luke 7:37 and got the booze in john 2:1-11. 

DT said...

 All business would be required to follow the law of the land.  One difference is Mosques and Synagogues can't solemnise a marriage.  A separate civil ceremony has to be performed.  Of course that would be a way forward for churches, separate the religious ceremony from the civil one, as they do in France.

Jeff said...

DT and BenjyP make good bedfellows - they are both so full of sarcasm, venom, ridicule and vitriol towards anybody who holds religious views, they clearly get off on it.

Their intolerance and thinly-disguised hatred is like a corrosive acid eating away inside them, waiting to spill out at every given opportunity. But take care because sooner or later all that pent-up poison and spite could turn inwards upon you as deep hatred often does.

DT said...

 Jeff,

I suggest next time you look at the bible take a look a Matthew 7:5 'Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then
shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

All BenjyP and myself are trying to do is prevent persecution of Gay people, I'm quite happy for anyone to enjoy their religion peacefully whatever that may be, as long as it complies with the law of the land.


Also as Jesus was so obviously an inclusive person, welcoming sinners, the sick and society's undesirables (eg Mary the prostitute) I'm sure he would be the first to compaign against the established churches unchristian teachings, as many Christian's like myself are doing. Remember God gave us free will and we don't have to slavishly follow the churches teachings, though the Anglican church have shown the way by ordaining openly gay bishops.

WP Spur said...

The sickly stench of sanctimony..

WP Avenue resident said...

Is this plot of land public land or does it belong to the church? I just wondered if they have the right to erect the rather large wooden cross that is there today? 

Jeff said...

DT - You cherry-pick your quotations from the Bible to suit your arguments. You use the one above as ammunition against me - but when it comes to other references in the Bible that forbid homosexual activity you say you "don't have to slavishly follow the churches teachings".

You can't have it both ways (if you'll pardon the pun), either the Bible speaks the truth or it doesn't. And of course the ban on homosexual activity isn't the "churches teachings" - it is part of the message that God gave to two of his principal messengers: Moses and Mohammed.

You say that the Anglican church has shown the way by ordaining openly gay bishops - but my understanding is that these gay bishops have to be non-practicing homosexuals. You didn't think the CofE and present Archbishop are THAT brave, did you?

DT said...

If they own the land and obtained planning permission, then there is no issue.  If they don't own the land and removed the cross after Easter, providing they obtained permission from the owners to erect it, did proper Health and Safety checks etc, again there should be no problem.

However, if they don't own the land and didn't remove the cross after Easter then they are at fault.

Please can people show a little tolerence!

Jeff said...

I understand the Romans erected THREE wooden crosses on a hill near Calvary and they didn't have the owner's permission or planning permission and didn't do any Health and Safety checks etc But thats the Romans for you, a law unto themselves.

Parkerilla said...

The cross has now been removed and the tulips left in a bucket for passers by to take. Looks like it was just there for the Easter weekend.

David said...

It's my understanding that the plot of land on which the cross was erected was once part of Cheam Common from which it was split when the railway was built in 1859, becoming "waste of the parish" and later adopted by Malden & Coombe Parish Council, now a fragment of Malden Green.
At no time has it ever been owned by any church.
Planning Permission would certainly have been required, even if for just a few days.

A call for tolerance is all very well, but it is religious fanatics who are the most intolerant, by definition.
Witness this person who signs himself (for it surely isn't a woman) "In reply to the stupid" - how "clever" - and makes insulting comments on anything he disagrees with, including things which have not actually been written. He clearly does the church no good whatsoever. His arguments are facile and his postings offensive. He is typical of the religious (or, more accurately, religiose) fanatics that have helped drive people away from the church in droves over the last 50 years.

The minister undoubtedly wishes to "publicise" her church, which is of course quite proper and acceptable. The old adage that "there is no such thing as bad publicity" is given the lie to by the ravings of "In reply to the stupid", who is surely known to the minister.
I take it as read that the minister would not wish to be associated with this person, so best leave it to her to calm him down.
She might care to use this blog to disassociate the church from "In reply to the stupid".

In reply to the stupid said...

It seems you know much about Worcester Park in prior centuries, but your grip on recent history is somewhat lacking. If you peruse this website, you will learn that whenever news of any community project appears, it is routinely assaulted and trashed by the least community supportive – just have a read of the recent thread on the local scouts.
 
Following that trend, when news of this volunteer project surfaced, Carey Preece led the Cazbar faithful (more deserving of the title, ‘the waste of the parish’) to arms against the latest ‘easy target’ ... one of the local churches. But it seems whilst they are content for cynical swipes when they are outward bound, when the tables are turned, they squeal out loud!
 
Apparently, their ruse is that anyone who disagrees with the Cazbar clones putting the boot into this faith based community project is deemed a “religious fanatic”. Given the choice, my guess is a large majority of Worcester Park would support the community, rather than join clan Cazbar to undermine it, which by the latter’s definition, makes this locality full of religious or even ‘religiose’ fanatics.
 
The question about planning permission was clearly a pretext – it arose only because one of the deluded local chavs suspected there was some mileage in claiming it was ‘illegal’. It’s been there in previous years, and it is obviously deemed by Sutton Council ‘a temporary structure’. Contact them at developmentcontrol@sutton.gov.uk if you want to inform them that they too are ‘religious fanatics’, being out of step with the will of mob Cazbar.
 
And whilst the Cazbar professed superiority over M&S, M&S were hard at work, actively helping in our local Marie Curie charity shop. What name shall now be given to those of us who prefer M&S’s off-line positive contribution to our community, as opposed to the Cazbar’s on-line negative, idle condemnations? How about “retail fanatics”?
 
Your attempt to draw a representative of the Baptist Church into this openly hostile arena is either incredibly na├»ve, or more likely, a sly attempt to bait them here and publicly draw their blood for entertainment. As well meaning reps from the scouts found to their cost, it only encourages the turkey shoot.

Parkerilla said...

In Reply To The Stupid, I'm not quite sure why you're dragging Sutton Council into this, the plot in question is in the borough of Kingston. I'm sure you knew but were just testing us lesser mortals.

Axlrocky said...

you clearly have some issues you need to seek help with

In reply to the stupid said...

‘Issues’? (Well, rashly assuming you are actually sober enough to make a sound judgement), if you define welcoming a legal, authorised, constructive, positive, community project for the entire community, “an issue”, then you’d be quite correct.

But on the plus side, scrawling on this blog in the early hours of a Saturday morning isn’t an issue I have (presumably it was just the drink talking?) And happily, perhaps unlike some writing here, alcoholic poisoning and cirrhosis of the liver are unlikely to be ‘issues’ or occupational hazards that I’ll need to seek help with.

David said...

" It’s been there in previous years, and it is obviously deemed by Sutton Council ‘a temporary structure’. Contact them at developmentcontrol@sutton.gov.uk if you want to inform them that they too are ‘religious fanatics’"

I've known the area all my life and have never before seen a cross erected on any public land.

Anyone who has known the area for even a short while knows that the railway divides Sutton from Kingston (and Epsom) - clearly you did not. Your claim regarding Sutton Council is therefore incorrect.

I have asked Kingston for elucidation regarding the structure, as I certainly wouldn't trust the accuracy of anything you wrote.

You continue to make insulting remarks, and use distorted quasi logic, towards anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow views.
Kindly tone down your language, or shut up.

Heed the words of Denis Healey :
"First law on holes - when you're in one, stop digging!"

DT said...

 Please read people's comments carefully before jumping in to your diatribe, I pointed out that planning permission would only be required if they own the land.  A cross is classified as a business advertising device, if erected on Church lands and so if they owned the land would require permission.

Also notice that no one has complained about the good works in clearing the land only the persecution of gays that this church is siding with.

Unfortunately it takes only one evil act to destroy a thousand good works, witness the many good works the Roman Catholic church has done, but their protection of kiddie fiddling priests has destroyed all of that.

Perhaps you can tell us if you support this persecution of gays.

Axlrocky said...

In Reply to the Stupid - get over yourself, the cazbar is gone, there is no mythical tribe out to scupper you, lets get this blog back to the usual banter that has seen it so popular in the past 

Ian G Francis said...

Oh for the life of me i cannot understand why you criticise people that want to make a living in WP and provide jobs. I can understand that the Cazbar might not have been your choice of venues but why oh why are you so venomous towards it and the owner ?

If a person enjoys a drink then so be it.. is this any more stupid than throwing yourself out of a plane with a silk parachute ?... both could be deamed as reckless.

If you believe in the church (whatever the religion) then please do so with respect. If you do not believe in the church then please respect those that do. As i type this i am wondering why we have such strong views on both sides over what was an Easter event !!... Tolerance of belief is a wonderous thing... as should be returned to those that do not believe and those that also enjoy a drink ! 

lets put this sad tirade to rest.

Juliefraser said...

hi,

looking for vol work or part time with christian charities, seving children and young people,
consider help with special nees children also.

mrs julie fraser

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