UPDATE - JULY 2012: A planning application has now been submitted to turn these presmises in Green Lane into a mosque. Full details can be found here.
Original article from April 2010:
The group behind a proposed 'Worcester Park Islamic Community Centre' has denied suggestions on its website that it is planning to convert vacant premises in Green Lane into a mosque.
A representative of the Centre confirmed to me that contracts had been exchanged on the 'Bank Chambers' building (next to Kingfish) but said that whilst plans had not been finalised, they would most likely involve the creation of an Islamic-funded community centre for the whole of the local community to use.When asked about suggestions on the group's website that the building was to be converted for use as a mosque, he told me was unaware of the existence of the website, which was taken offline within hours of our conversation.
The website called for 'Muslims locally and internationally to donate generously towards building the House of Allah' in Worcester Park.
It described Worcester Park as 'a huge focal point, with home to over 500 Muslim households in the locality' adding that 'currently the nearest Masajids [mosques] are up to 3 miles away...' and included a downloadable pledge form for donors to help fund the £325,000 cost of creating of the Centre.
No planning application has yet been submitted for the site.
UPDATE: Two weeks after I broke this story, it was picked up by the Surrey Comet who ran a somewhat sanitised version of the story in their paper and on their website. The Google cache of the wpicc.org website has now gone - click on the image below to see a snapshot of the page.
178 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):
In my lifetime, millions of people have been admitted to Britain without any consultation with the indiginous British people because we can be pretty sure what the response would have been.
Now those millions are here it would be petty and most unfriendly to deny them a holy place in Worcester Park to perform the duties of their religion. They will after all be praising the same God that Christians believe in.
Let's hope that this planning issue can be discussed in a civilised manner - and not turned into part of the U.S. and U.K. government's ongoing attempt to demonise Islamic people to justify our occupation of oil rich Iraq.
Here as elsewhere, Islam grows dynamically whilst Christianity continues its decline under ineffectual Church leadership. Surely we can offer our Islamic friends something better than Bank Chambers, what about one of the many almost empty churches in our area?
Well if they just went back to their actual country then they can have Mosque's everywhere; why should i have to live next to one in my country where the main religion is Christianity in the Church of England?
dont they do prayers on Friday? - its the only day of the week with no significant traffic jams in WP! apart from that cant see a lot of harm and it may bring some much needed extra footfall to WP businesses.
WP White van men wont be happy though!
It's a bit concerning that the website was so hastily removed! From a community point of view, I would have been interested to know what their plans were.
Which "actual country" are you talking about Anonymous? Come on...is it so hard to believe that there may be Muslims out there who were born in Britain or who call themselves British?
Noone lives next door to the building anyway...but even if they did, what do you imagine would happen that would be any different to living next door to, say, a church?
And what of Sikhs, Hindhus, Catholics even...should they go back to their "actual country"? Anyone else out? How about Atheists (of which I'm one)....blimey, where would we put them?!
Muslims worship the same 'God' as all the Christians out there, and they also see Jesus as a messiah, so in fact there isn't a vast amount of difference between your religion and theirs, especially if you look far enough back in the history of Christianity, back to its own stricter, more radical days of crusading round the globe.
And seeing as you worship a man who was born near the borders of Israel and Jordan, you seem pretty intolerant of anyone else who comes from a similar region of the world.
I'd be more annoyed if the place was left vacant for another 15 years, or a Huntsmans hall mk. 2 opened up there. We're talking about peaceful, religious, decent people coming together to pray, and do something for their, and our, local community.
Cant see why its even an issue.
Well said, Andrew H. I understand the Qu'uoran says that Jesus C. will return to Earth one day with the purpose of uniting the Islamic and Christian peoples.
Anonymous asks why he should live next to a Mosque when the main religion here is Christianity? It's called religious tolerance something we've practiced successfully on (mainland) U.K. for a couple of hundred years.
Anonymous - One day the majority of Islamic and Arabic people here may well choose to go back to their countries of origin. But not before the U.S. and U.K. get out of the Middle East and stop turning it into a shooting gallery. And not before democracy comes to Israel where non-Jewish Israelis are treated with a total lack of humanity.
Would you want to go back to Gaza where 978 Arab diabetics have died since the Israeli embargo on medical supplies - all because the people of Gaza voted for a Hamas government? Or back to the Palestine where the Israeli Defence Force uses Arab children for target practice as we have seen on TV? Or back to Iraq...
In the meantime our Arab and Islamic friends are free to enjoy our hospitality and this includes having somewhere for collective prayer and instruction in the service of all people.
oooh first politics and now religion posts getting everybody heated - im guessing a sex scandal has got to be next for WP! hee hee
Jazz it up a bit! Nick Griffin is in New Malden tonight ?!?!?!
So glad that most WP blog users seems to have a sensible attitude to religous tolerance. There is hope yet. Maybe anonymous should 'go back' to Normandy or Denmark where his ancesters most probably came from. How many of us are not descended from immigrants or invaders in one form or another?
It's really nice to read that the majority of comments on here have been positive and I live amongst a tolerant people. I walk down Green Lane twice a day and it would be good to see that building put to useful purpose. I did immediately think about Friday prayers but from what I remember this mainly happens in the day time? Lunchtime? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong... But Friday lunchtime won't be a hassle for commuters and as there is no parking at that building surely there won't be more traffic? All the available spaces will have been taken up by the early commuters!
Nick Griffin in New Malden tonight? He must be canvassing the Korean vote now that he has to accept non-white people into his party by law.
These petty lawmakers may yet be hoist by their own petard. (Do people still use that phrase?). Many of the people living here of non-indigenous culture want to defend their cultures from the dubious pleasures of multi-culturalism every bit as much as Nick Griffin.
Where I used to work there were people from Nigeria who voted BNP. In trying to destroy the BNP these lawmakers might just have shot themselves in the foot and handed Griffin an unexpected boost to his electoral score, enough to get a sizeable group in parliament before too long.
First they said they wouldn't win any council seats but they did. Then they said they wouldn't win any MEP seats and they did. Now they're saying they will never win any MP parliamentary seats....
For those worried, don't. With the traffic as bad as it is around Green Lane, they'll never get to their meetings!
Thanks to WP for the original post – though it seems most readers have either overlooked or perhaps avoided the points of controversy, in favour of trying to appear to be the greatest living, breathing advert for multiculturalism. ‘Live and let live’ is a great philosophy, but it’s hardly a new or innovative one.
Returning to the original post: Why exactly would anyone pro-actively attempt to establish a House of God for a community, but subsequently deny there was any such attempt to establish it? Why would they then make an embarrassing, botched effort to hide that attempt? And why would they claim that a proposed establishment, clearly intended for a particularly section of the community (as detailed in its advertisement), was actually intended for the whole community?
Jeff seems to think he knows everything about life, the universe and everything, so I’m sure he will provide the answers. With his preachings against Israel, Jeff also appears to have an anti-Semitic message reminiscent of those of certain jailed radical Islamists.
Maybe Jeff's simply got Worcester Park confused with Finsbury Park? However, such a viewpoint would probably also go down very well at a BNP rally, so perhaps Jeff would like to volunteer to be Nick Griffin’s warm-up act?
Anonymous - I'm glad you've picked up on that aspect of the story.
I tried for a week to get someone from the WPICC to speak to me about their plans for the site, but my phone calls were never returned.
Then, when I did get through to someone, there was a very strange denial of knowledge of the website which was hastily taken offline.
That does puzzle me, along with why someone would take on a very expensive lease on a building with no confirmed plan of what they are going to do with it and no outline planning permission for conversion of the site.
I have no objection to a mosque on the site, other than the increased traffic to a site which has no parking facilities, but the way the group are going about it is a bit unusual.
'Worcester Park' is right there is something odd going on here.Will the old Post Office building be next.
What will almost certainly happen is ,that it will be a 'cultural centre' for 12/24 months .Then permission will be sought to get the site designated as a mosque.You only have to see what happened with the mosque in Morden(old Express Dairy site)addition after addition.
I am all for tolerance but i wonder what would be the situation if a Christian Group wanted to set up a Christian Cultural centre in a Muslim country.HMM.
No i am not a racist or a religious nut or even a member of the BNP.
I am an Englishman who is sick and tired of our society/community being dumped on, treated as if we don't exist,while pandering to minority groups.If minority groups want to feel included ,then they should integrate into the community of Britain and take on our custons and ideals.
And if our community does not want a islamic cultural centre then we should be allowed to say so without fear,and not be open to some of the inflammatory comments mentioned by others.
why not give the youths somewhere to go have it turned into a community youth centre for the 14 - 17yr olds give them somewhere to go instead of hanging around kfc and the like geting in bother with the law and causing antisocial antics!
Would just like to say, as far as live and let live not being a particularly innovative attitude, neither is being a dismissive argumentative sarcastic...person! In the best possible taste of course.
It might seem odd that the website was taken down, but there hasn’t, as far as I know, been a denial by anyone about any plans that may or may not be happening to this site. The website outlined very vaguely that a ‘community centre’ was proposed, which is later referred to as a ‘house of Allah’ but that’s it. As much as you’re criticising peoples opinions, I feel you yourself are reading too much between the lines and insinuating some kind of cover up. Until a spokesperson comes forward to resolve the speculation, I don’t feel why there needs to be accusations and arousal of suspicions.
I knew there would be people on here who would inevitably take the opinion that us ‘bleeding heart liberals’ should butt out, and that’s fine. But why pick apart someone’s argument, in a somewhat libellous way, when all they are doing is stating facts? I don’t see where Jeff has used any anti Semitic references, only stating well known facts, verbatim.
And to say a community centre will not be accessible to the whole community when you literally know nothing about what form this centre will take is a bit premature.
Agreed that it is odd that no one is prepared to speak out about this from the WPICC, but the sooner they do, the sooner we can move on.
I don’t see what affect this will have on the traffic around the area anyway. At times when traffic and parking is a problem, the yellow lines are in operation to stop people parking where they like down Green Lane. So some days the precious few spots near the sports club may be taken up by people visiting the centre instead of being taken up by commuters, (heaven forbid someone who lives locally might use the spots themselves), but that’s hardly going to affect the traffic in the area. And perhaps the people using the centre might actually utilise their feet and walk there! Strange concept I know.
All I can say is that I, as I’m sure is the case with others, wanted to try and say positive things to balance the inevitable onslaught of ‘why should Muslims get a mosque, were all Christians over here’ posts. As Jeff said, if you believe that so much, then go to a CofE church on a Sunday and show your support. What ever you may think about their faith, Muslim people and mosques don’t stop anyone in this country believing what they want to believe, or doing what they want to do. Unless what you want to do is stand in front of the derelict Bank chambers and admire its desolation.
How can they have the nerve to put any sort of place of worship where Bank Chambers currently lies, when our community has gone without a hairdressing salon or charity shop for so long now? It's political correctness gone mad.
Why pull the website and not answer any questions? looks like something is not right with these people have they got something to hide?.People were in the Bank Cambers praying till past 8.00pm the other night yet the building is registered as use for financial services only.Has any one spoken to the council?
The traffic problems in Green Lane are bad enough.
Rick accuses me of anti-semitism because I criticised the vicious policy of the present Israeli government towards Palestinians.
That old trick doesn't work with the public any more Rick, trying to stifle democratic protest against Israeli state terrorism by calling the protesters Nazis.
Rick shows his ignorance when he says my views would go down well at a BNP rally: the BNP openly supports Israel and demonises Arabs in their propaganda. He couldn't have got it more wrong, could he.
Rick should be careful about calling me a BNP supporter. I am far, FAR worst than that.
Far Far Far worse than that. Are you French or from Morden Jeff?
It may turn out to be a harmless Islamic community centre, but what if it doesn't? During the 1990s numerous radicals from the Islamic world poured into Britain after having fought the Soviets in Afghanistan, where they had effectively become Jihadis. When these men returned to their home countries as battle-ready revolutionaries, many were expelled. These individuals eventually found their way to Britain, which, for a variety of reasons, was very hospitable to terrorists of all kinds. This turned Britain, during the 1990s, into the literal epicenter of European Jihad. Human rights and minority rights legislation since then have acted as a kind of coercive arm for victim or grievance culture, in which minorities are always conceived as the victims of the majority. Therefore, if the majority does not comply with their demands, they are immediately guilty of crimes such as prejudice, racism, "Islamophobia,etc." We have therefore created ourselves a society which becomes an ideal breeding ground for all types of fundamentalism. So, before we welcome them with open arms, lets just be sure that they are here for the right reasons.Does anyone know the people who purchased this building, does anyone know exactly WHERE the money came from to purchase this building? I'm urging people to be cautious before welcoming this "Centre" into the community. You really have NO IDEA what this could be....DON'T TRUST ANYONE, UNTIL YOU KNOW YOU CAN!!!
No not from Morden BanjyP, not that bad.
Now let's get back to the serious issue. Surely we can offer our Islamic guests somewhere better than Bank Chambers, a mosque needs to have its own car park for a start like the big one we have up here at Morden.
Damn, damn, damn, I've just let the cat out of the bag BanjyP, O.K. I do come from Morden.
I still say we could get a couple of local C of E churches to double up and let the spare one to the Islamic community on a ten year lease.
After all, there is a long tradition of places of worship changing sides as the needs of the community change. Cordoba Cathedral in Spain used to be a mosque and the Great Mosque at Istanbul used to be a cathedral once.
What's good enough for Istanbul is good enough for Worcester Park, surely?
So far, the only person “stating well known facts, verbatim”, has been WP! He has apparently tried, repeatedly, on behalf of our all-inclusive community, to discover what the score is with the WPICC and its aims. [That is, unless you think he’s lying and part of a pro-Israeli conspiracy].
But it appears the WPICC is anxious to avoid discussing itself. Additionally, when contact is made, it is woolly about its own objectives and apparently knows nothing about its own website appeal, (which was promptly removed). So all we know is that the WPICC requires £325,000 for something. And it's something that the WPICC would rather the wider community doesn’t know about - or so it seems.
As time goes on, I’m sure we’ll discover more here on the WP blog. But in the meantime, perhaps someone could explain to Andrew H. why a community group so anxious to avoid the community sounds just a little odd? [And the difference between a ‘community centre’ and a ‘house of Allah’] Alternatively, perhaps Andrew H. might like to drop into Morden’s Baitul Futuh Mosque and ask?
As for Jeff, who seems to have gleaned his simplistic understanding of the Middle East from watching the Al Jazeera Network, here’s a verbatim statement from BNP leader, Nick Griffin, who said of the Holocaust: "I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter-day witch-hysteria." I imagine (and rather hope) that only those with insanely extreme political views would claim Mr. Griffin was openly supporting Israel.
So who is most ignorant? Nick Griffin or Jeff? Possibly, as Jeff claims, “I am far, FAR worst" (sic). Finally and coincidentally, today, counter-terror officials have named the 20 most influential Islamic blogs. There's no mention of a Jeff in this year’s charts, but one entry is based in New Malden: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7509872/The-top-20-most-influential-Islamic-blogs-named-by-counterterror-officials.html
Hi Rick, My simplistic understanding of the Middle East wasn't gleaned from watching Al Jazeera as you say (which I've never watched) but from good old BBC TV along with everybody else when we saw Palestinian children being shot.
The soldiers' defence was that if you kill them at eight, they won't be coming at you with a Kalashnikov (sic) when they're 18.
You really must keep up to date with Nick Griffin's policy on Israel before you call me ignorant (Google "BNP" Israel). He publically recanted his holocaust denial some time ago and in Question Time on 23 Oct 2009 declared "the BNP is the only party that supports Israel's war on terrorism".
Of course this slots in neatly, though cynically, with the BNP's Islam-bashing policy which they hope will win them votes.
So you see Rick, if anybody should be giving the warm-up speech for Old Nick it's clearly you, they wouldn't let me inside the hall.
It could be advertised as a 'Nick and Rick' double bill.
Your hope that "only those with insanely extreme political views would claim Nick Griffin was openly supporting Israel" is forlorn and clearly demonstrates your ignorance not mine.
What business have counter terrorism officials in naming the 20 most influential Islamic blogs? Just because an Islamic blog is influential doesn't mean it's terrorist. If any blog advocates terrorism then the webmasters should be prosecuted with the full force of the law. That includes blogs that praise Israel's Mossad which has been assasinating (sic) people it doesn't like for years.
All evil regimes implode eventually (USSR, South Africa etc) and Israel is no exception, democracy will come peacefully to that country eventually.
On that day we will shout with our Arab brothers 'God is Great!'. Feel free to join in when that day comes, Rick.
It must not be allowed, end of story. I am not against anyone, but if I were to go to Thailand for instance I would abide by some of their laws to cover up in certain places. They are in our country and as such should respect OUR ways of life and not take over our whole communities. To hve a mosque, or Muslim centre in the heart of a W Park is ridiculous and would cause all sorts of problems. There is a mosque not far away near Merton - a huge one- let them travel a few miles to that one!!
No mosque, no mosque, it can't be allowed to happen surely!!
There is a mosque not far away that I know I have drive by why do they need another one so near?
No church, no church, it can't be allowed to happen surely!!
There is a church not far away that I know I have drive by why do they need another one so near?
Everyone please contact the council to show your disapproval only if they know can something be done.
I really don't feel that anything Mosque wise, whether just a centre, or a church should be in Worcester Park and I think we as a 'community' should get together to stop it if this is what is actually proposed. We probably wouldn't be allowed to open something Christian in a muslim country if we lived there so why should they in our country!! But being British we just let people 'because it's PC' get away with things.
We've won wars, for what!!! This is ENGLAND, British soil!!! A mosque....what next......
I really don't see why anyting 'Mosquesque' should be allowed in Worcester Park, it is totally out of character, and as another poster said sadly there is a hughe mosque not far away. We don't invade their cuontry, why are they invading ours!!!
Note the sarcastic one about the church!!! Yes of course there are churches, this is ENGLAND....we don't go to a uslim country and put up chuches, we wouldn't be allowed!!!!!!
Why should they invade our country with our customs. If we were to go to another country, we would quite rightly have to abide by that contry's customs, so no bloody mosque!!!
They should not have bought the property without applying for planning permission first that is the correct way to do things.
It is bad enough on that corner with youths hanging out, I can see nothing but trouble if this goes ahead even if it is an Islamic community centre. Which if you do your research is just another name for a mosque!
What is sad is the close mindedness of people. Why compare ourselves to middle eastern countries, we are, and have been for centuries, at the forefront of culture and revolution. This is just another step forward in the way the world needs to be. There has been wars over religion for millennia, and i think the only way forward is to be tolerant of many religions, regardless of man made land boundaries.
And yes, there are churches in Muslim countries, for example St. Mary's Roman Catholic church in Doha, Qatar.
If any of the commentators to this blog would actually like to go into (rather than drive by) a Church, on behalf of all the local Christians, I'd just like to say I'm sure you will find a warm welcome...
Andrew Sillis
Vicar of St Mary's Cuddington
I for one hope residents will be consulted about this BEFORE any plans are made.
Why cant they turn the building into a Starbucks. Then everyone will be happy.
In view of the emerging theme of respecting a country’s culture and not inflicting external beliefs on that country, I look forward to the next time I go on holiday in Turkey and see all the sober tourists respectably dressed and avoiding bacon sandwiches and pork sausages like the plague. What? I won’t? Why not? Turkey is after all a Muslim country, and it is against their culture to drink (well, to excess anyway) show lots of bare flesh and eat pork. And they fought wars to protect that culture too. And Turkey isn’t the only Muslim country that practises this tolerance, so do Egypt, Malaysia, Tunisia, and… I could go on.
So if Turkey, with a far higher percentage of Muslims (98%) than the UK has Christians (72%), shows this tolerance, why shouldn’t we? Whilst I think that the PC brigade often go much too far in this country, I do believe that people should have the right to follow their beliefs, within reason.
Apart from the sudden removal of the WPICC website raising suspicions, here are a couple of practical reasons that we might not want a mosque in Worcester Park:
As has been pointed out, there is the impact on traffic and parking. Muslims are expected to pray seven days a week, five times a day, Friday lunchtime being the most important. So the impact on the traffic could be considerable if the local Muslim population are very devout.
Further, there is the adhan: the call to prayer. Having spent most of last year living in the shadow of a minaret, I can assure you that this can be very loud. As the first call is before sunrise, you probably won’t need an alarm clock any more.
Are these really causes to worry though? No doubt the new CPZ and changes to Green Lane will take care of the traffic (ha!), and, personally, I like the adhan, and rather miss it…
And UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a Star*ucks be allowed, either on the site in question or anywhere else in Worcester Park.
When tolerance appears to be one sided to the point of ridiculous I do believe it is a cause for concern. Are the prospective owners in any way linked to those who have purchased the old Gleeson building in North Cheam? There may well be Christian Churches in Muslim Countries but I doubt on the same scale or level as Mosques, etc. are in what has always been a Christian country. If tradition and culture means so much to certain groups then maybe they should be practiced in their country of origin.
Dear Abi,
Personnaly, I would not like to be woken up by any call to prayer.
Worcester Park Blog:
Please, Please, Please keep us updated on this issue. Local residents should be allowed to vote on any planning application for the permitted use of the building however many may not even get the chance to do so.
I for one am glad to see that the 'Worcester Park Islamic Community Centre' has been denied.
The only way forward is to stop tolerating the intolerant religions of the world...and that's all of them! It is NOT racist or culturally intolerant to say NO to any group who infringe the rights of women, children, homosexuals, people with disability and anyone with aopposing views.
People who say "We are a Christian country" make me sick! We spent hundreds of years trying to relinquish the grip of fundamental Christians on our lives only to openly invite Islam - a religion that is tearing apart the lands it has a hold on - to our shores.
And Andrew H...Your hands around the world view is rather naive. Religious groups have been at the centre of every destructive and
shameful period of our history on this planet. Inviting all the fanatical religions of the world here will ignite the already ticking time bomb. And If I were a Muslim in Qatar I'd be very worried about having a Roman Catholic church in my midst as they seem to have a massive problem with paedophiles.
We should welcome people of any colour or culture to our shores, but we should also not give up the culture and freedom others before us fought so hard for...a freedom from religion people living in Islamic countries can only dream of.
It has only been denied by the new owners but their website tells a different story!
For those who read Jeff’s latest comment and are unaware, the phrase 'God is Great!' ("Allahu Akbar") is a traditional Islamic expression. In recent years, it has been misused, being adopted by Islamic extremists, rather like the BNP adopted the Union Flag. BBC viewers will recall it was notably utilised by the 9/11 hijackers and copied by the Bali bombers.
The slogan continues to be utilised by representatives or members of groups (such as Hamas, mentioned by Jeff), actively working to oppose what they see as evil empires or citizens of them. But just like the Union Flag, its meaning entirely depends on the context.
You can judge for yourself what Jeff’s context is. Hamas meanwhile is itself defined as a terrorist organisation by the EU and most of the free world. Others may continue to believe Hamas to be simply a political party and its critics to be evil empires.
Why are counter-terror officials taking an interest in influential Islamic blogs? I suspect any BBC viewer might be able to hazard a guess at that one. Some will maintain that official interest in blogs is completely unjustified, just as they may maintain Abu Hamza’s incarceration is completely unjustified.
More importantly, this post is actually about the WPICC, and those legitimate questions and criticisms: Firstly, despite the apparent, considerable efforts of the WP blogger, it remains an elusive, secretive society. Secondly, because it allegedly lacks the prerequisite legal permissions to achieve its ill-defined objectives.
The WPICC has lost a great opportunity by maintaining its position of withdrawn secrecy. This situation certainly isn’t helped by a committed enemy of Israel seizing this blog and the WPICC post as a vehicle to broadcast their own ignorant and intolerant viewpoint.
As the BNP currently “supports Israel's war on terrorism”, Mr. Griffin certainly appears to have literally switched sides. However, perhaps that position may reverse again and before long, maybe the BNP door will reopen for Jeff?
Perhaps a member of the local, Islamic community can persuade the WPICC to unlock a channel of communication? Or failing that, perhaps they might at least tell us what they know about the organisation and its real plans? From some of the comments here, clearly there is considerable, unnecessary local paranoia evident.
The last thing the WPICC or the wider WP community needs is to allow Jeff to fill this void of silence with his own brand of politics. There is absolutely no evidence to connect Jeff or Jeff’s views with the WPICC or the ‘500 Muslim households’ described in the WPICC appeal … no more than his views celebrating the decline of Christianity reflects those of your own household.
Sorry to keep upsetting you Rick, my name seemed to crop up in every other sentence in your last posting. It's just that you caught me at a bad moment.
I'd just seen that picture of what the Israeli settlers did did to that 14 year old Palestinian lad. They turned up one morning and chopped down all the trees in his grandfather's olive grove, it had been the family's source of income for generations. Then they started building their settlement there.
The grandson took to throwing stones at the settlers, well, boys will be boys. So the settlers took an axe and chopped his right arm off at the shoulder. You can just hear them saying "There, he won't be throwing stones any more".
Rick, it isn't ignorance and intolerance to speak out against things like that as you suggest. And as for saying I've seized this blog to broadcast my ignorant viewpoint, well 3 previous postings out of over 40 on this thread hardly qualifies. Please try and keep a sense of proportion.
However, I do resent you trying to demonise me because you fell flat on your face in not knowing about the BNP's support for Israel. You say the 'BNP door will reopen for Jeff if Nick Griffin renounces his support for Israel'. My problem with BNP policy goes far beyond that, it's the same as most people's objection - the BNP's crazy opposition to EU membership. I mean, there isn't anything else for sensible people to disagree with them over is there, Rick?
And about that snide reference to my 'views celebrating the decline of Christianity' because I suggested one of WP's empty churches could double as a mosque. I don't celebrate the decline because I am one of them - empty churches are unfortunately a fact of life.
Other people must be getting heartily fed up with our dual which is now well off-topic so I promise to post no more on this thread. Which leaves you, Rick, the chance to have the last word. An opportunity you're unlikely to miss.
This is a delicate subject isn't it? You can't object to it as it sounds "racist" whatever your views. You can't say "I've worked with all nationalities and religions in London BUT all we had was trouble in the office between them.........."
For me, I'm afraid I wouldn't be happy, especially as there is a HUGE mosque in Morden (and another in South Wimbledon). I have been past there on a Friday and they have a policeman directing traffic (who pays for that?). Surely these places should only be allowed in areas where the population is in the majority, and that certainly isn't WP.
Sorry but I'm all for different cultures coming to this isle but not for areas being taken over with more traffic issues and problems in the Green Lane area.
Only a McDonald's, Starbucks and a big school to go and I'll be off.
In October 2003, the newspapers reported: "The largest mosque complex in western Europe, which can hold up to 10,000 worshippers, was today being opened in Morden, Surrey.
The Ahmadi Muslims, who constructed the first London mosque in Putney, south-west London, almost 80 years ago, have built the huge architectural landmark."
Well everyone, it only holds 10,000, and that was 7 years ago. Don't forget that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birthrates, the number of Muslims in Europe has tripled in the last 30 years. So naturally there is a need for many more Mosques ALL OVER Britain as our wonderful Government keeps pushing immigration as the way forward. You voted them in, so you've got to now accept that these poor Muslims are running out of places to worship.
Who knew there was so much latent racism and anti-foreigner sentiment in Worcester Park? I love reading all these Little Britain type responses and Daily Mail style OUTRAGE!
I am laughing at all these responses which amount to little more than 'the terrorists are coming to take over our corner of Surrey!' and equally close-minded rubbish. Or the irony of proclaiming this country's greatness relative to these 'intolerant' Muslim countries, yet displaying the same level of intolerance it other races, cultures and religions over here.
SO let's drop the BNP/Tabloid 'THE ISLAMISTS ARE COMING FOR US' nonsense.
For the record, for the 'can't all them brown lot go there' lot, the mosque in Morden is an Ahmadi mosque which caters to a relatively small sect of Islam, in the same way that there is a difference between Catholics and Anglicans for example. Most of the Muslims in the UK are Sunni with a large Shia minority too, and thus they would not worship at that particular mosque.
It might be worth pointing out that a quick stroll around the high street might show that the real problems are the disproportionately high number of teenage mums and threatening teenage 'chav' louts hanging around and causing trouble due to a lack of education and stable family upbringing mainly. It may also be worth pointing out that almost all these teenage mums and chavs are white, caucasian, indigenous and almost certainly not Muslims or foreigners. In conclusion, far too many easily-led sheep in this country refuse to look at the underlying problems in this country because it's easier to spew racist rhetoric.
I was born in this country, and moved to Worcester Park with my parents in the late 1980s. I've lived in this area for 23 years, and for the most part I love this little corner of SW London/Surrey that we have here; so much so that after getting married and having kids I choose to continue living in WP. My parents are Muslim, I'm not particularly religious but I do respect all faiths and cultures equally. Sadly, reading some of these comments above makes me feel less comfortable in the town that I was raised in and continue to reside.
(By the way, anyone who says anything along the lines of "I'm not racist, but..." is probably a racist)
Does anyone think there would have been nearly 50 posts if the original article had a headline of "Worcester Park Shinto Community Centre", "Worcester Park Zoroastrian Community Centre", or "Worcester Park Agnostic Community Centre"......... Of course not.
Has anyone seen how bad the traffic is in stoneleigh because of parking for the mosque! It just cant be allowed in WP, Green Lane will come to a halt. !
I don't think it is so much racism more a fear that the indigenous population are becoming fewer on the ground and feel like strangers in their own Country afraid to follow centuries old traditions for fear of offending others. The Political Correctness Brigade have a great deal to answer for.
Again, terms like "indigenous population" and "political correctness" (which is always accused of "going mad") are total cliche tabloid inventions, intended to scaremonger and rally the weak-minded together in order to give them a point of fear.
There is absolutely nothing that suggests that the so-called "natives" are becoming a dying breed, nor is there any specific evidence detailing what supposed traditions are dying out. Rags like the Daily Mail and The Sun have bastardised the term "political correctness" and turned into into a derogatory term, when it fact it means nothing but being respectful rather than insular. But I suppose it is easier to rile up the unwashed masses by feeding them headlines like "THE ISLAMISTS HAVE ELIMINATED CHRISTMAS FOREVER!!!!" while telling you that St. Jade Goody should be your role model in life.
I am sure that if there was a mosque (or for those who love a bit of heightened hysteria "HOUSE OF HATE") that old traditions will still survive - teenage school-leavers getting knocked up at 15, clusters of chavs hanging around spitting and threatening near the KFC or loitering near the station, and drunks vomiting a recently consumed meal outside Surrey Nefis.
Dutchman - you are totally right ofcourse - had it been any other sort of community centre, it wouldn't be an issue...
Totally agree with all you've said Tabloid Hater. Its such crazy hysteria, do people honestly really worry themselves that the 'indigenous' people are dying out? There are enough teenage single 'English' mums in the area to keep the generation going for a hell of a long time into the future!
And people thinking those things really need to do a bit of research into the history of this country, both at home and abroad.
And you're so right, the most threatening thing I find in this community are the gangs of 'white' chavs loitering all over the place with nothing better to do than vandalise and abuse people.
from what Andrew H is saying, it sounds as if the 'liberal happy clappy brigade' are back in town.
If so God (or whoever you may or not pray to)helps us all.They are the real threat to society.
it does seem that almost most of the community dont want this in green lane lets how the council will uphold the local peoples wishes.
Yeah, because planning rules are all about democracy aren't they. You want to build an extension on your house in future? Fine, let the "community" vote on it.
Sheesh.
Any chance people could stop ranting about this, too many of the views shown are ridiculously right wing and poorly thought out. In addition the well composed and sane views will not convince anyone who has the strong and polarised views that conflict with their own thoughts. Change will always occur.
It was much more fun when it was all about slating people from the Hamptons, New Malden or Browning Avenue. I dislike them them all.
I love how those who are anonymous are against this idea. Is this because they/we are scared of the consequences of expressing views?!?! yes i think so.
There shouldn't in theory be a problem with a multi-cultural society, if everyone integrated. however communities rapidly form where by British white people are not included and looked down upon.
the oppression that Britain has caused over the years can NOT be denied, but the pathetic attempt to 'make up' for this has resulted in the opposite effect.
so i don't think it would be a good idea to convert churches into mosques and other religious 'temples', drowning out the culture and religious views that WERE once installed in this country, until there is nothing left.
It worries me that the website was removed so shortly after being confronted about it. if it has to be hidden, it proves that that the people who want the building to be converted to a mosque are very sly, and obviously do not want to be part of the whole community.
I agree with fellow anonymous, people are worried about being labelled racist or otherwise but it is true that our culture is being ground down. If the wearing of the Christian cross is deemed to be unacceptable for fear of upsetting other religions. How long before it is deemed unacceptable to worship at a Christian church for the fear that their presence would offend others.
If you're referring to the nurse who recently lost her tribunal case about wearing her cross at work, that literally had nothing to do with religious reasons, or fear of offending anyone. The hospital had a strict policy on necklace wearing as they found it unsafe as many of the 'elderly and confused patients would grab at necklaces'. In the same hospital they had prevented Sikhs from wearing wrist bangles, and Muslim doctors from wearing loose hijabs, so as you can see it has nothing to do with religious persecution. The hospital told the nurse she was quite welcome to wear the cross as a brooch or wear it on her identity lanyard, but she refused. But perhaps the daily mail neglected to mention that.
I think people are worried about being called racist because they have racist leanings themselves and know it! If you feel that it just isn't right that Muslims are allowed to pray in this country, then that's pretty closed minded. As is the rhetoric that allowing Muslims to pray in this country somehow erodes our culture! How does it, or how can it.
Why would Muslim people want to integrate with a community that basically puts the shutters down because they aren't white or Christian.
Actually I was thinking more of the lady who worked for BA where health and safety was not an issue. I think "shutters went down" when the website which sparked all the for and against comments went offline when questions were asked as regarded its content.
I see the Surrey Comet has now got wind of this story. Apparently planning permission for "change of use" for these premises is going to be applied for...
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/6575755.Worcester_Park_set_for_its_first_ever_mosque/
I am one of the people who when they heard about the proposed community centre/mosque thought "oh that's a good dea, there are loads of muslims in Worcester Park". I don't think i'm in a massive minority but think only the people who are incensed (one way or another) by this are commenting which gives a distorted view of Worcester Park. As voting turnouts for general elections prove, most people don't really care.
Regarding calls to prayer, i used to live next to a mosque in glasgow and was never too bothered, and i work about 300m away from a mosque in merton, and am still not bothered.
What kind of worries me is the attitude that christianity is somehow threatened by this. As far as i can tell most religions believe that their way of thinking is correct and everyone else is wrong. So if you are sure of your faith, why be threatened by another? Surely they are misguided at worst and as a christian you should welcome a opportunity to interact with all faiths to try and save as many people as possible, that is if you believe christ is the way and the light and the key to eternal salvation and all that stuff. I don't mean to offend anyone but can't see how this idea is really a big problem - also bear in mind the site is a lot smaller than Morden and accordingly will have less attendees.
it is the attitude of people that annoys me! religion is just something that people can be categorised into because it is something that people of like mindedness have in common. typically those who have grown up believing in a religion come from a similar community, and they obviously have different morals to other communities.
so i do not care about what religion people believe in, but the morals and ethics i have grown up knowing and that Britain typically have, are being changed.
if i went to another country or someone house even, i would respect them and what they believe to be right and wrong, or their etiquette. for example in my house i ask people to take my shoes off as i enter, if someone came to my house and didnt thats just rude. no one seems to respect anyone in Britain and everyone is trying to enforce how they live.
It's not the fact that there might be a Mosque in Worcester Park that has caused the concern, it's the denial by the WPICC themselves. If they want a Mosque in WP, why suddenly remove their website when questioned about it?
theres is already enough traffic down green lne without them blocking up more of our roads!!!!!!!! stop it now!!!
what about the people who live close by to this place? it will be open 7days a week with calls to prayer,what about their peace, as was said earlier the people who bought the premise should have applied for planning permission before they bought as any business with any savvy would do. This smacks of something! was there not a mosque in carshalton or sutton that was exposed for teaching extremist views,maybe they are now moving to worcester park!
I simply can't understand why they are going ahead with this and why they got permission. There is a HUGE mosque at Morden and on Fridays I've seen the police directing traffic, it's an absolute nightmare. It must be dreadful for those in the small rounds surrounding it. And there is a mosque at Stoneleigh (So I've heard?) and one in South Wimbledon. Worcester Park is too small for a mosque - how big will it be? Where will everyone park? Where will they all come from? Not Worcester Park anyway.
I used to live in Longfellow Road and that was a nightmare with all the station parkers. Then the Council were thinking of permits.
Sory but it isn't on and about time the council listened to people. What if everyone affected stopped paying their council tax in protest? Stupid idea as we'd all go to jail then. Seems we have little say in our own town!
Just to set the record a little straighter: At this time there have been no change of use planning applications for the building in question. This means that no-one has applied to change this building into either a community centre or a mosque. As the WP Blogger rightly points out at the end of the article.
IF and when an application is made to the council planning team for a 'change of use', the public will be notifed via the usual channels (press etc) and we will all have the opportunity to voice our opinions.
Hope this helps.
maybe someone should set up an action group?
how many people are willing to join?
please say on this blog so we get an idea.
You light the torches and i'll fetch the rest of the posse!
If you read the Surrey Comet article, it states that permission must be obtained to enable a ‘change of use’ – not that it has - or that it will be. Sure enough, JasonJHunter confirms that no perquisite permission has yet been sought. Yet, on the elusive WPICC advert, there is a clear intention to convert this building into a community centre or mosque, for which (as JasonJHunter also confirms) the application must be filed in advance - but hasn’t.
From the rashly deleted appeal, we can only assume either the WPICC intend to convert the building without engaging with the Council, or they believe permission is a foregone conclusion. Given the WPICC’s obvious, unequivocal, written intention, can JasonJHunter explain why our Council have not explained to the WPICC what is required of them and have failed to resolve this matter?
Since the WPICC are already hotly pursuing their intentions without Council intervention, I hope we do not have the beginnings of a divided society that most of us object to and the Liberal Democrats, in particular, appear most vocally and passionately against. The current situation is far from reassuring and JasonJHunter has done little to set the record straighter – if anything, it appears the Council are failing to enforce their rules for members of a particular group.
I hate to see a well-intended, local blog seized and utilised by a peddler of objectionable, racist propaganda and I’m sorely tempted to respond to each of Jeff’s comments here, but I’ll touch on a few important points. He complains that his posts are ‘off topic’. Well, it might help if Jeff actually wrote something even remotely connected to the WPICC, as I have, each time, rather than his repetitive, fanatical, singular message: I’m anti-Jewish, and pro-everyone who might agree with me!
Even as a non-Jew, I find his noted open bitterness towards Jewish citizens horrifying. Perhaps readers are “fed up with our dual” (sic), but I like to think people of KT4 (especially Muslims, who are so often displaced by conflicts between Muslim factions or Muslim countries) will have recognised his familiar Islamic militant slogans and views and drawn their own conclusions about his beliefs (sick).
I should also point out to Jeff that I am well acquainted with the BNP’s ‘flexible’ Israel stance, which when suddenly reversed, drew jeers and laughter on Question Time. Jeff, since you previously missed it, let me spell out your ignorance: Mr. Griffin dropped the Jew hating policies when it landed him in court, but also because it alienated more people than it attracted!
It seems to have escaped Jeff’s attention, that he’s merely recycled exactly the same failed, rejected rhetoric of the BNP, which was judged too extreme, even by those extremists themselves! He can broadcast and pursue the fruitless and discarded BNP policies if he likes, but just like Mr. Griffin, it’s Jeff who will eventually fall flat on his face – in front of a Judge! Jeff, if you do cling onto the ex-BNP dogma that Mr. Griffin ditched, possibly you will end up sharing a cell with Abu Hamza! How very comfy – soul mates as cellmates!
I believe the overwhelming majority of residents in WP are no more comfortable with a Christian or a Muslim or any other kind of supremacy in KT4 and I hope Sutton Council will belatedly inform the WPICC that they, along with everyone else, have to accept the principle of equality before the law - something which makes our democracy so appealing to all religions and races from all around the world (well, except the odd, noted, extremist).
I hope JasonJHunter may yet persuade Sutton Council to take an active interest in this matter. Alternatively, perhaps those in opposition might like this opportunity to show voters how differently they would have addressed this issue and let voters judge who they want running Local Government?
Rick - there is nothing the Council need to on this. The WPICC have not yet submitted a change of use application, and unless they start using it as a mosque/community centre without approval they are doing absolutely nothing wrong.
It might be unusual (and risky) to buy a lease without getting planning permission for change of use first, but it is certainly not unlawful - so the Council has no business intervening, as you suggest and has no rules to enforce.
I said I would speak no more on this thread but at least one of Rick's nasty accusations cannot go unanswered. He uses the phrase 'anti-Jewish' instead of the phrase 'anti-Israeli' i.e. anybody who criticises Israel's inhumane policy towards the Palestinians must be against all Jewish people and probably a Nazi to boot. I don't think people are fooled by that piece of lazy intellectualism any more.
Israel more than anybody else should know you don't treat human beings like that.
To criticise the government of Israel doesn't make somebody 'anti-Jewish' because although all members of the Israeli government may be Jewish, only a very small proportion of Jews worldwide are Israelis who support the Israeli government. Do look up on You Tube the Jewish Labour M.P. Gerald Kaufman's outstanding speech in the House of Commons attacking Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. Is he anti-Jewish too?
As for the BNP: I would vote for them as a protest against the gutlessness of the other parties on the all-important issue of Immigration but disagree without exception with everything else they advocate. There's no doubt that on the question of an Islamic centre or place of worship in Worcester Park you, Rick, are on the same side as the BNP and as you well know it's not a view that I share.
Did anyone else arrive home from work yesterday to find a photocopy of a page of the Sutton Guardian, dated 8th April, posted through their front door? I puzzled over it for a few seconds before realising that there was a highlighted section at the bottom of the page headlined 'Mosque on way'. The article is now 2 weeks old and has no more information in it than the original post on this site. Who has put this through my door and why??
Unfortunately I live in the Kingston part of Worcester Park and therefore the first I knew about this "mosque" was last weeks Kingston
Guardian. I am shocked and appauled. I am English and not multi national. Did my parents actually fight a war so that we could be overrun
by other peoples ideas and religious beliefs?
The more years that go by the more I hate what this country has allowed itself to become.
It seems to me that the only people accepting what is happening are the religious fanatics who
believe in something they cannot prove is true!!
only if i can build a pig farm next door
I'm sure they'd demonstrate a lot more understanding and tolerance of a pig farm next door than some of the posters on here seem to display.
I was just about to sign a lease for a shop in Worcester Park and now one of my investors have pulled out because of the mosique idea. The problem is it wont just be a mosique, the community will change and the demands in shops will be affected. This mosique is a dangeous idea. I come from morden and when that Mosique was built the community and shops changed!!! I moved because of it!
Stephanie, I am sorry to hear that your investor pulled out. Please be assured that there is no mosque in Worcester Park.
If you would like some assistance in replying to your investor, then please contact me, I will be happy to help.
You only have to look at New Malden to see how a community can change when another culture takes it over and makes it a mini enclave of their own Country.
JasonJHunter
"Please be assured that there is no mosque in Worcester Park."
is that not yet or will never be?
An Islamic community Centre is also a front for a Mosque. Will that be allowed?
Everyone I speak to in Worcester Park is dead against the idea of a mosque or an Islamic community centre in Green Lane, lets hope the council listens to the wishes of the local residents.
Pathetic. Some of the people on here make me really embarrassed to say I live in Worcester Park.
Is this really the general attitude of this place? Closed-minded suspicious paranoia?
Can you please describe to me exactly what negative ways that you feel the Korean community has impacted on New Malden.
And what kind of business would be affected by the addition of a mosque in the local area? A BNP merchandising outlet?
What precisely was it that changed in Morden when the mosque was built. I regularly commuted via Morden long before the mosque was built, and I genuinely don't see any difference between now and then.
And if the politicians and councillors from this ward are using this blog to pander to the bigots in the area, then shame on them.
Congratulations to the Blog for being mentioned on The Guardian website, but I have a feeling after having one look at the general tone of the comments on this post, that all the new potential followers will disappear back to reading more tolerant material. And moreover, leave with a *hopefully* skewed opinion of what Worcester Parkians are actually like.
Can some people who aren't just opposed to this because of simple bigotry please speak up!
Sorry, but I really don't believe that an 'investor' pulled out of a deal on the basis of possible plans for a mosque in Green Lane.
I wonder what else we can blame on the mosque?
I agree with Tom, that posting about an investor pulling out of Worcester Park because of a possible Islamic centre in Green Lane doesn't have the ring of truth about it. You can be certain that JasonJHunter won't get a reply to his offer of help.
Anonymous asks what negative ways the Korean community has impacted on New Malden.
Well, just 25 years ago it used to be a British town, it's culture was British. Now it's culture is Korean and the British people were never asked to vote on handing it over. Korea was never part of the Commonwealth so they're not British subjects even, so how do they all get work permits?
All the Koreans I've met are O.K. and I eat a couple of times a month in their restaurants (now that they understand they aren't allowed to put 'Koreans Only' signs in their windows).
But I want to live in a British town not a Korean town, what's so terrible about that? My Grandfather died in WW2 stopping this country being invaded by foreigners, he must be turning in his grave.
Precisely how is New Malden no longer a culturally British town?
Last time I went there Tudor Williams was selling roasting dishes not sushi sets, Rock & Roe had not become Wok & Woe (and I was therefore still able to eat fish and chips without chop sticks) and the numerous pubs there were continuing to serve Great British ale and crap food. All very British to me.
Yes, there are Korean shops there, but what harm are they doing?
Jeff - I think you'll find your Grandfather fought for freedom - and freedom means the ability for others to express their culture and live and work in other countries.
If I had the time and inclination I'd explain to you the difference between hostile invasion and economic migration, but I think it would fall on deaf ears.
Weeks later, we are still seeing the same close-minded and not even thinly-veiled racist rhetoric. Now people are rolling out the "my grandfather fought for this country..." line! And ofcourse using familiar BNP tactics people tangentially and crudely form a connection between the wars of a previous generation and attach them to potential mosque-building plans in an nondescript suburb; this ofcourse achieves nothing but undermining whatever sacrifices the previous generation fought for by reducing it to such insignificance. Let's stop digging up the graves of WW2 veterans and hiding behind the rotting corpses in order to argue an unrelated point shall we? Many of the comments in this thread are nothing but regurgitated tabloid nonsense targeted at the most weak-minded and impressionable sort who spend their life getting 'outraged' and having to be anti-something in order to make their lives more interesting. I'd advise those people to educate themselves a little more and avoid trying to embarrass themselves further by engaging in crude Orientalist discourse.
If a (presumably mythical) investor pulled out of a deal in Worcester Park because a mosque may or may not be built here, then I say good riddance to this investor (who may or may not be a figment of someone's imagination); I'd rather we had less close-minded bigots in this town, although reading the comments on here there are already enough as it is. It is embarrassing to see Jason Hunter now pandering to the lowest common denominator on here to secure a vote; he's certainly lost my vote now by attempting to console someone displaying bigotry.
This thread is almost turning into a parody of itself now that we have exhausted the hysteria of "ISLAMIC TERRORISTS ARE COMING TO INVADE WORCESTER PARK" to pining for the halcyon days of KT3 and longing for an imagined past before those damn Koreans colonised the area, when all you could see in the high street were the 'indigenous' people having cream tea and scones and singing hymns. Let's ignore the fact that New Malden has benefited hugely in an economic sense from the Korean businesses establishing themselves there, the Korean children are usually highly educated compared to the 'natives', and well, it seems even an insular Little-Englander isn't averse to enjoying some Korean grub every now and then...
Ah, if only we could have an ideal world here in KT4; nothing but teenage mums smoking while pushing around their fatherless babies, underage chavs heckling commuters at the train station, drunk troublemakers spitting and cursing outside KFC and a jolly old brawl at The Huntsman Hall. What a wonderful world it would be!
what about the korean Gang turf wars in new malden!
Well said, Tabloid Hater: I quite agree that Worcester Park is better off without such a small-minded investor, whether real or imaginary. Does this supposed investor avoid putting money in every town where the is a Muslim community, in case one day they might set up a mosque, or community centre or whatever Bank Chambers might become? If so, they're going to find it very difficult to invest anywhere in this country.
To all the anonymous posters who keep saying that an Islamic community centre is just a front for a mosque, why do you think this? What are the Doris Venner and Elmcroft community centres fronts for? The BNP and the English Defence League maybe? Is it possible that an Islamic community centre could be exactly that: a place for the Islamic community to meet? Why shouldn't they have a place to get together? Muslims also have wedding anniversaries, birthday celebrations, retirement parties etc. and they are hardly likely to book the local church or pub for these gatherings. If they choose to pray when they get together, so what?
Finally, what about the W.I. setting up in Worcester Park? Singing Jerusalem, inflicting their jams and nude calendars on us, and showing disrespect to Tony Blair (actually, more of the last one please). And their first meeting was in a church! Terrible. Why isn't there more outrage against this plan?
Congratulations WP blogger btw, well deserved.
I just want to further address Jason J Hunter, standing for the Liberal Democrats.
I think it's sad that he is trying to ingratiate himself to the baying mob wielding pitchforks; although the sadder part may be that his move can be considered politically astute: rather than be forthright in his views, he would rather woo the lowest common denominator spouting bigotry rather than take a stand; and this is from a LIBERAL democrat candidate!
So let's look at this situation. Stephanie, a budding leaseholder on a shop says the following, and I quote:
"I was just about to sign a lease for a shop in Worcester Park and now one of my investors have pulled out because of the mosique ideea"
Thus asserting that one of her potential investors is a prejudiced bigot whose religous and cultural intolerance is to such an extent that he refuses to invest his money in an area where they might potentially be a mosque or an Islamic centre. Apparently this investor only wants to put his money into an area that he can guarantee will be racially pure and free of a spot where those "terrorists" might want to convene. Under this scenario, would that mean that an innocent chicken shawarma from Ryan Gate is the phantom WMD in this investor's dodgy dossier?
Stephanie than goes on to espouse her own views on the matter, clearly showing they are not simply limited to the investor, and again I quote:
"This mosique is a dangeous idea. I come from morden and when that Mosique was built the community and shops changed!!! I moved because of it!"
Note the inflamatory language: DANGEROUS! So dangerous in fact that Stephanie has run away from another area specifically because a mosque was built there, and has now turned to Worcester Park as an indigenous shelter, only to be thwarted by those darn Muslims again. Quite frankly, if this means that she won't have the chance to open a shop here, then something good has come from this already.
All in all, Stephanie's views are no different from others in this thread. However then a political representaive of the Liberal Democrats, Jason J Hunter, weighs in with the following shocking remarks:
"Stephanie, I am sorry to hear that your investor pulled out. Please be assured that there is no mosque in Worcester Park.
If you would like some assistance in replying to your investor, then please contact me, I will be happy to help."
Incredible.
Not only does he express sorrow that a clearly bigoted investor didn't invest here - stating that his reason for not doing so was because of the potential plans for a mosque / Islamic Centre - he then goes on to try and placate this racist view by offering to help and intercede on her behalf!
Really Jason, do you honestly feel it's a shame someone chose not to invest in this area because they carry racist views, and furthermore are you really willing to try and get any support you can by reaching out to someone who calls a place of worship "dangerous" and admits to leaving another area because a mosque was built near her former abode? Are you willing to alienate openminded voters and those who are not caught up in prejudiced hysteria in order to court the "Stephanies" of this world? This seems to be at odds with your party view at any rate.
Imagine if rather than Islamic (the current media bogeyman for Little England to shriek at) we substituted Blacks or Jews. An investor chooses not to invest because a Caribbean/Jewish centre may open in the area, and a potential shopkeeper claims the Caribbean/Jewish centre is "dangerous" - is that someone whose vote you would target Mr Hunter?
Anybody who believes my grandfather died in WW2 to give Koreans the freedom to come and live in New Malden is clearly mentally defective.
Anybody who can't see that New Malden is no longer a British town should go to Specsavers (New Malden branch).
Economic invasion IS hostile invasion - ask anyone of British ancestry who's unemployed.
Tabloid Hater should be careful who he calls racist and bigotted. Racism means hating people of other races or believing one race is superior to another. My comments are devoid of both sentiments - the fact that I and the Koreans prefer to live among our own people doesn't make us race-haters. If so there must be a lot of race-haters in Southall.
You call me an insular Little Englander but you haven't noticed that I am about the only person on this blog who has defended the right of Islamic people to have a cultural centre or place of worship in Worcester Park. Elsewhere I have advocated the UK playing a full role in building a United Europe for 50 years. So much for Little Englander.
If Tabloid Hater thinks British people are all chavs, drunk trouble-makers and single mums pushing prams, and that the Koreans are so much better educated and Korean businesses so much more enterprising, the logical course would be for him to go and live in Korea (though I doubt whether the canny Koreans would give him a work permit).
The wind is blowing the other way across Iceland, the skies are open and the next Korean Airways flight is departing shortly from Terminal Three. Don't miss it.
"Economic invasion IS hostile invasion - ask anyone of British ancestry who's unemployed"
However this assumes "employment" is a finite resource in a zero sum game. Which it isn't.
Well, planning permission or not, these guys are assuming their mosque will be built!! Check this link: http://www.andalus.org/content/massive-opportunity-to-gain-reward-inshallah
Just to set the record straight. I am not rascist and do not have an issue with any religion that wants to integrate into our society.
I do, however, have an issue with having a mosque at that particular location as the traffic and parking in that area is bad enough as it is. I am basing my opposition to the 'ficticious' mosque on the basis that it is not feasible in terms of traffic volume to have one on the corner of Green Lane and Central road. As we are democrats, I will of course bow to the majority.
Once again, confirming that no change of use permission has been applied for to change from the previous tenants. Please stop causing this divide and putting words into other people mouths.
Poor Jason J. Hunter. Every time he tries to gain extra votes on this blog, he ends up losing a few more!
Perhaps there's a latent message here, for all local, aspiring politicians.
Note the following lines, lifted directly from the new WPICC web page:
1. “I write this email to inform you of a new MASJID that is inshAllah to be OPENING SOON IN MY LOCALITY OF WORCESTER PARK”
[A masjid is a mosque – Google the word if you need confirmation].
2. “The price for the building has been agreed, an initial £25,000 deposit paid and PERMISSION GRANTED FROM THE LOCAL COUNCIL FOR HOLDING THE 5 PRAYERS alhamdulilah”
[No ‘change of use’ or promised public consultation necessary?].
And here's the link again, read for yourself:
http://www.andalus.org/content/massive-opportunity-to-gain-reward-inshallah
Firstly JasonJHunter, are you therefore condemning the Bank Chambers to a lifetime of dereliction? If the traffic is too much of an issue for anyone to use the facility, why not just raze the thing to the ground and be done with it. And why not go a bit further and close down the fish and chip shop on the corner, or maybe even Worcester Park station itself. All these inconvenient local amenities getting in the way of the cars! What IS the world coming too?
Worcester park may be a 'commuter' town, but it certainly shouldn't be treated as a motorway service station, some kind of conveyor belt for people to get from one place to another by road or rail.
Im glad some more positive, sensible comments have been added to balance the barrage of nonsense foreigner bashing that's been happening.
I feel extremely comfortable and safe in New Malden. I would quite happily spend a night out there and walk back home. However, in the predominantly 'white' Sutton, I really don't like venturing there very much even during the day. If people actually opened their eyes and wiped away the haze of ignorance, they would see how much immigration has benefited this society, and actually, the majority of problems that we have to deal with in the area is down to poor parenting of the white British youth.
Im 27, of 'British ancestry' as Jeff puts it (although quite what is meant by that I don't know, we are a nation of immigrants) and im fed up with the scaremongery that comes from watching Sky news or reading the Sun or Daily Mail. People swallow that crap up and beg for more just to make their lives more interesting. The big problems facing this country are a hell of a lot closer to home.
What nonsense to talk of people 'turning in their grave' about the current state of immigration to this country. I have relatives who fought in the war, and they fought for freedom from oppression and freedom of expression, but that is just what people here are peddling. If war veterans are spinning in their graves its because of the intolerance portrayed by so many people today.
Name one thing that you cannot do today in New Malden, or anywhere else accused of being 'over-run', that you were previously able to do 40 years ago. And if there's too much competition for work, then maybe people need to apply themselves a bit better, or get an education.
There are two issues here: is Green Lane the right place for an Islamic Centre/Mosque and should there be an Islamic Centre/Mosque in Worcester Park at all?
The answer to the first issue is clearly No, there are no parking facilities on that already overcrowded corner and even stopping for drop-offs would cause chaos.
As to the second issue, are we to end 200 years of religious toleration and deny Islamic people a place of worship in our community? I know American foreign policy has done a good job of demonising Islamic people to justify their lust for oil in the Middle East, but don't fall for it.
On the other side of the By-pass we see Christian churches doubling up for Koreans as a place of worship, why shouldn't Muslims be invited to share one of our under-used churches in Worcester Park (as I've said before)?
This would pre-empt the Islamic belief that one day Jesus Christ will return with the special task of uniting the Christian and Islamic peoples. (Jesus Christ is considered to be a very important person in the Islamic religion and there are stories about him in the Holy Qu'oran that aren't even in the Holy Bible).
Trouble is, when that day comes the Americans won't be at all happy with Christ for uniting the Christian and Islamic faiths and will probably label him a terrorist and send him of to Guantanamo Bay. You remember Guantanamo Bay, that was the torture camp that Obama promised to close down but is still open for business as usual.
If (a big if as far as i'm concernered)a permission is granted, the area will deteriorate.
Residents will move. Local investment would decrease and as a result, an even weaker local economy.
There is already a huge mosque in Morden, Green Lane is certainly not the spot to have it.
Green Lane is a rat run, there's a school, a sports ground, the hamptons, speeding, traffic,parking problems (caused by train commuters),etc. The council is currently trying to address these issues.
So they would be mad to grant permision to create another problem before resolving current issues, which by the way, they are spending our money in consultations and planning and actioning.
As proprietor of More Than Mosques, I wholeheartedly endorse this plan.
Converting Bank Chambers will be an ideal job for More Than Mosques - specialists in mosque conversions and a proud Worcester Park Business.
My investors will be delighted.
Just a short comment in response to people saying "why don't that lot just go to Morden?" (even though I addressed this very point earlier in the thread):
The mosque in Morden is for worshippers of the Ahmadiyya faith only, which is a relatively small subset of Islam. The majority of Muslims (worldwide, in the UK, and in and around Worcester Park) will be Sunni Muslims, along with a significant minority of Shia Muslims - NEITHER OF WHICH WOULD PRAY AT THE MORDEN MOSQUE.
It really is worth emphasising because Ahmadis are just one movement within the religion, much like within Christiantiy there are a number of different subsets.
so why if they are such a small subset do they need one of the largest mosques in europe!
It is not 'such' a small subset, it is RELATIVELY small subset.
There are around 30,000 people who follow the Ahmadi faith in the UK, the majority of whom live in and around London, and the Morden mosque is their main mosque, one of the only in the country I believe for their faith, as well as serving as the cultural and social centre for the Ahmadi community in the UK, in addition to being a place of worship.
For the majority of Muslims in the area who are Sunni, the closest mosque is the relatively small Kingston Mosque.
Sometimes it is worth doing a little research and education into cultural diversity in order to better understand the issues and questions that are raised.
In reply to Tabloid Hater:
It strikes me as odd that given your declared Muslim background and your obvious knowledge of this subject, you’ve been surprisingly slow to recognise clear evidence of an undeniable plan to open a 'masjid' (i.e. mosque) in Worcester Park. And yet, despite your superior, 'inside' knowledge, you write of “potential mosque-building plans”, “might potentially be a mosque” and “if there was a mosque”. Why the unnecessary smokescreen?
The flaw in both the ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ campaigns is that their respective followers don’t know what they’re actually in favour of or against and they're simply trying to fill the void, by misinforming everybody else about the opposition’s true agenda.
But it’s clear and unequivocal: it’s a mosque – end of story, as stated in writing, by the project’s leader. Why have you followed in the identical, carbon copy footsteps of this project’s representatives and been so anxious to submerge the truth about the plans for this building? Don’t you think it’s been hugely counter-productive, now the truth is known?
It’s essential that when (not if) the application for a ‘change of use’ is reviewed, both community and local council can clearly see the real nature and purpose of the change. Any likely impact can be raised and reviewed, and we can all have the opportunity to engage in the process.
Our council (regardless of party politics) can make a well informed judgement and all members of the community can see that their decision was both enlightened and fair – whether they personally agree with it or not!
You might well disagree and respond along the predictable lines that I’m a ‘racist little Englander’. I’ve certainly been called a lot worse on this blog!
In Answer to Andrew H’s statements:
“It might seem odd that the website was taken down, but there hasn’t, as far as I know, been a denial by anyone about any plans that may or may not be happening to this site.”
Yes it’s very odd, especially since the website’s purpose was the appeal for funding. The plans were plainly denied, hence the wording at the top of the original post. “Worcester Park Mosque Plans DENIED” Perhaps it’s more obvious if you read the quote out aloud.
“The website outlined very vaguely that a ‘community centre’ was proposed, which is later referred to as a ‘house of Allah’ but that’s it. As much as you’re criticising peoples opinions, I feel you yourself are reading too much between the lines and insinuating some kind of cover up.”
Insinuating a cover up? Reading too much between the lines? How about simply reading the lines? ‘House of Allah’ was the first clue. ‘Masjid’ was the second:
Proposal = House of Allah = Islamic House of God = Masjid = Mosque.
Therefore: Proposal = Mosque. It’s hardly MENSA level.
“I don’t feel why there needs to be accusations and arousal of suspicions.”
Really? What would it take to arouse your suspicion? Perhaps a written statement from the leader of the group, asking for funding for the (officially denied) mosque and claiming to have planning permission for it? (Even though hotly denied by the council). Surely, that would arouse everyone’s suspicion? [Except the suspicion of a renowned explorer of uncharted naivety].
“However, in the predominantly 'white' Sutton, I really don't like venturing there very much even during the day.”
Probably the answer is ironically for you to get out more, during the day. But if you don’t feel safe in a predominantly ‘white’ area, presumably the answer is to live in a predominantly ‘non-white’ one. If you favour a predominantly Muslim territory, there are dozens to choose from, from Afghanistan to Zanzibar, although on safety grounds, the Foreign Office advises against visiting some of them. [Perhaps I might be reading too much between the lines of their clear advice].
“There are enough teenage single 'English' mums in the area to keep the generation going for a hell of a long time into the future! (And in a similar vein) … and actually, the majority of problems that we have to deal with in the area is down to poor parenting of the white British youth.”
I don’t think it’s fair to condemn single mothers, especially not the widowed single mothers of servicemen, whose husbands have been killed trying to bring safety, security and peace to (notably) Muslim communities and countries.
And additionally since the ‘English’, white, single mother (by choice) of your child might well be offended. [But if you’ve recently moved out of your mum’s house, married and set up home together, let me be the first to congratulate you on your belated commitment to parenthood].
As Andrew H would say, “In the best possible taste of course”.
Oh, this blog is cracking me up !! Of course, we could always ask Dr Sultan Syed directly, who appears to be responsible for raising the funds for this proposed mosque; and he has very kindly left his email address on the www.andalus.org website, and he quotes:
"please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions you may have, queries regarding setting up a Qard Hasana or just for further information."
Rick, let me try and address your rather scattered points as best I can, despite your patronising and somewhat condescending tone. You wrote:
"It strikes me as odd that given your declared Muslim background and your obvious knowledge of this subject, you’ve been surprisingly slow to recognise clear evidence of an undeniable plan to open a 'masjid' (i.e. mosque) in Worcester Park. And yet, despite your superior, 'inside' knowledge, you write of “potential mosque-building plans”, “might potentially be a mosque” and “if there was a mosque”. Why the unnecessary smokescreen?"
I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse, but I fail to see "clear evidence" of a mosque being opened, or any concrete plans that have been formerly approved by any council. If you yourself have any such evidence, I would ask you to please provide it, and enlighten us.
It is always important when make a definite statement as you are doing to cite definite sources. The website you have cited has as it's purpose the aim of raising funds for this proposed mosque; thus one must assume that unless funds have been raised, payment confirmed, and official council approval cited, none of this can constitute "clear evidence".
Furthermore, you have helpfully translated the word 'masjid' as mosque yet you have failed to also translate the word 'inshallah' which is translated as 'hopefully'. Thus in the interests of full transparency and objectivity (rather than to use a statement to satisfy a biased agenda), the statement is translated as saying that a new mosque will be HOPEFULLY opening soon in Worcester Park.
I am happy to be accused of many things, even those with negative connations, but "slow" isn't one of them. I also don't claim to have any 'inside' knowledge of these [insert dramatic music] plans, other than the debate that has raged on this very website. Unless my declared parental religious heritage somehow makes me an 'insider' into all the nefarious machinations of the Surrey Islamic underworld. Therefore, as would only be logical, unless these plans are confirmed by an official council source rather than a website that "HOPES to raise funds in order to HOPEFULLY open a mosque" (as per their statement), then I shall veer on the side of using language such as "potential" and qualifying my statements with "if.." since that is the only logical conclusion we can currently draw at this time without falling into the trap of assumption. Until I see actual evidence of a mosque actually being built, it is all neither here nor there; it exists as 'potential' only. The only websites that have been cited as sources are not any official council sources but websites seeking funding. A statement of intent and a plea for funding are simply that, not the sinister undertones you seem to be reading.
While it may not serve the purposes of your diatribe, there is nothing "clear and unequivocal" about it. Entering the realm of fantasist conspiracy theory by making dramatic accusations of "submerging the truth" is rather laughable, and only serves to reflect badly upon yourself.
I think tabloid hater is correct in his observation. Rick is definitely trying to be deliberately obtuse. I am not saying the problem is single mothers, but bad parenting. Whether by single parents or not.
I certainly would not count my partner as a single mother being as we live together and raise our child together. Properly and well. This is the 21st century, not the 18th.
And anyone, MENSA member or not can see what my point is. How long did it take you to twist my comments into some kind of rhetoric to use against me. Are you saying that Sutton is a safe place to be? Would you happily walk through the town each night, confident that you wouldn't be accosted by anyone?
And we don't live with my mother any more, no. She recently had to have her legs amputated due to chronic medical problems, and now, unfortunately, has to be looked after by nurses 24 hours a day. But seeing as you brought it up on a public blog, thanks for your continuing concern.
Andrew H asks what you can't do in New Malden since it became New Korea. He must be walking around with his eyes shut tight.
You can't buy meat in an English butchers, you can't have a Full English in a traditional cafe (like those that abound in Tolworth), and you can't shop in a delicatessan. Or to put it another way, 80% of the shops and eateries are for food, goods and services that British people don't buy very often if at all.
Do try walking around New Malden with your eyes open next time, specially when crossing the road.
Whatever machinations are going on in Green Lane I don't believe for one minute that permission will be granted to open a mosque there on the grounds of the lack of parking alone.
In addition to my previous comment, may i add that 'living with my mother', ricks words to try and make me look stupid, as is his general misguided debating style when commenting on this blog in general, is not really fair.
My mother has had severe dementia for the last decade, and ive been her permanent carer for the last 7 years. I really don't think trying to smear someone because they basically choose to give up their life to care for a dying loved one is very good form.
Your posts add nothing to this blog except contempt for yourself. They have no substance, and nor are they appreciated. I find them tedious, and such a turn off from visiting this otherwise good natured, adult and informative website.
Jeff says of New Malden:
"You can't buy meat in an English butchers":
Really, Jeff? Last time I went to Head Fine Foods in New Malden it was a discinctly English butchers shop.
"you can't have a Full English in a traditional cafe"
Really, Jeff? I went to Village Cafe next to the station a few months' back and had a lovely Full English.
"you can't shop in a delicatessan"
Really, Jeff? Last time I went to Il Villaggio delicatessen in New Malden they kindly let me shop. How many towns have delicatessens these days anyway?
"80% of the shops and eateries are for food, goods and services that British people don't buy very often if at all"
The Fountain, Greggs, KFC, Pizza Hut, Costa, Subway, Manuels the Bakers, MacDonalds, Rock'N'Roe, Village Cafe, The Glasshouse, Royal Oak.
I wonder who they are targeting?
Yet again Rick has personally and publicly attacked Andrew and myself.
His misguided opinions and erroneous views regarding our marital status have been allowed to become slanderous comments on this blog.
I am so sick of the personal attacks dealt out by Rick.
We live a good life, raise our daughter together, and we're both hard workers and are aiming to give our daughter a decent upbringing. We're decent people, why do you feel the need to be so rude to us?
I'm slightly dismayed at the WP Blogger for not editing Rick's comment and letting it pass despite it containing such personal information.
This is not the first time, but I do hope it will be the last.
Apparently an application to change Bank Chambers into a community centre has been received. I was given this information by a local liberal democrat councillor, who said the application was received a couple of days ago (22nd April).
Victoria Webb, questions should be followed by these little things: ?
And what a load of racist tosh you're spouting. The reason 'we' wouldn't 'invade' their countries and build churches is because WE do not live in fear of persecution like in many of their countries, WE do not want to go and live there when we have a much better deal here, and WE are an increasingly secular society, so why would we want to build a church elsewhere, when the ones over here are so poorly attended?
"Welcome in", I say.
Oh, and Rick, you clearly have issues with frustration and anger. Being aggressive and rude online is symptomatic of a repressed individual who does not have the character or balls to express their anger or dissatisfaction in everyday life, so your frustrations overspill when shielded by the safety of your computer screen. It's old and it's tired. Grow up.
We do not need any business or whatever that could attract more traffic to the Central road area of WP. Nowhere to park around Green Lane so lets all head for Waitrose where on a Friday you have got to hunt for a space. We need less car users not more - I hope those Libs don't let us down.
Once again - please take this as confirmation that at 09:42 on Monday 26th April, 2010 that no applications have yet been made for a 'change of use' for the Old Bank Chambers on Green Lane.
Please stop the scaremongering and relax.
Somebody should build a mini-multi storey where Marks and Spencer used to be.
And a flyover across Central Road to the A3 for all the traffic it would geneate!
OK, so not such greats idea...but when will somebody do something with the old M and S?
Does anyone have details of the petition that has organised against the mosque.Please give details thanks
It is the tradgedy of human kind that although people can mix cultures do not. A quick look round the world shows this. Cyprus, Ireland, Sri Lanka, anywhere in the Balkans, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, I could go but where cultures mix one will always, sooner or later, try to dominate the other which often leads to conflict or civil war. These cultural differences are often, but not always, based on religion and the differences do not have to be great to cause problems. The Sunni/Shiites hate each other, protestants/catholics, hate each other, Orthodax/Catholics hate each other and all these people profess to revere the same God. I know that the above comments generalise but I am sure that most people realise that they are right. I am too old to be around when, I fear, the UK degenerates into civil strife but I do fear for my grand childrens future.
I say no to any mosque or community centre in green lane, it would be a nightmare for all those living near by, if these people who bought the property so badly want a mosque why dont they put it in their own houses?
Tabloid Hater, thank you for your ‘scattered’ reply. Your earlier, supportive statements for this, in many ways, vague project suggested that you were acquainted with it. However, it seems you are a fellow observer, albeit a favourable one. Sadly, you are therefore unable to offer any further insight, as I (and I’m sure others) had hoped. Seemingly, you’ve merely joined the blinded ‘diatribe’, either for or against it, though uniquely, you seem to be sniping at both sides.
Although my understanding of Arabic is zero, my English is passable. Dr Sultan Syed’s statement alone is, to quote myself, “clear evidence of an undeniable plan to open a 'masjid' (i.e. mosque) in Worcester Park”, rather than your misquote “clear evidence of a mosque being opened”. Plainly it can’t open until the funding is received – hence the appeal. I mention this, as you put it rather well, “in the interests of full transparency and objectivity (rather than to use a statement to satisfy a biased agenda)”.
Controversially, the latest web appeal states not potentially, nor hopefully, but explicitly “permission granted from the local council for holding the 5 prayers”. (I believe they are held daily, not weekly, as suggested by others – maybe someone else could confirm this?) However, the council has hotly and repeatedly denied this claim – though so far, only ‘unofficially’. Therefore, if as you suggest, discounting all unofficial sources (including this blog), leaving just the non-existent, official sources, there is zero ‘official’ evidence of anything: a WPICC, a planned mosque, an appeal, or a payment of £25,000 deposit for possession of the building, (though all widely reported in the local ‘tabloids’). So thanks for the reply, but I disagree with your ‘no evidence’ conclusion, until there is “actual evidence of a mosque actually being built”.
Aside from the claim that Sutoon Council denies, I find the apparent denials, absent contacts and disappearing web appeal baffling – hardly the receptive response one might expect from a funding request for a good cause and something of a PR disaster. The first advert had the target of £325,000 and the second £200,000, implying over a third of the funding has been raised - unless the sum required is as changeable as the web presence? If the ‘HOPEFUL’ appeal fails, what happens to the donations? Presumably they wouldn’t just simply disappear, just like the first web advert?
Surely the funding campaign needs to be transparent? Those behind it need to be open about it and their intentions and above all be prepared to engage in communication with the wider community and council? Others might conclude, “Making dramatic accusations of submerging the truth is rather laughable, and only serves to reflect badly upon yourself.” That’s their privilege, on a public blog, particularly if they lack a more knowledgeable retort.
As an alternative, I would suggest to those thinking of donating to the WPICC / WP Mosque appeal, that donations made to http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk are to a REGISTERED CHARITY. Donations are GUARANTEED to fund a very worthy and TRANSPARENT cause. The charity supports Britain’s service personnel (from all backgrounds and faiths), seriously wounded whilst maintaining peace and security and sadly, often killed or injured whilst working alongside Muslim communities. Also supported are their widows and dependents.
If you can’t spare a donation, then spare a thought for the seriously injured personnel in the Chinooks (large, twin rotor helicopters), usually newly arrived from Afghanistan and flying over Worcester Park. They’ll be on their way to intensive medical care at Headley Court. I doubt there’s much written about this on the council’s official website either, but nonetheless, if you look up, they’re real enough.
Firstly, I don't want to be woken up by some guy calling people to prayer at 5AM, and secondly, what is a mosque in Green Lane going to do to the traffic around Green Lane and Central Rd?
'Worcester Park' is wrong in his posting (23 April) criticising me for saying that traditional UK shops like butchers, cafes and delicatessans are disappearing fast from New Malden to be replaced by Korean shops catering for Koreans only.
He mentions Head the butchers, the Village Cafe and Il Villaggio delicatessan as still trading and completely misses the point that NONE of these places are in New Malden High Street!
They've all been banished to odd corners and backstreets of New Malden. Heads, which I thought passed into Korean ownership years ago, is a good 15 minute walk from New Malden High Street.
'Worcester Park' then lists the few remaining UK retailers in the High Street as if that proves anything.
Ask yourself how many of that dwindling list will still be in UK hands in five years time?
I think we all know the answer to that - the Koreafication of New Malden will then be complete - aided and abetted by over-tolerant UK citizens who should know better.
I've heard that there's the possibility of land at the Hamptons being acquired to build a mosque. Does anyone know anything about this? This was apparently from someone who lives in the Hamptons
I read the article in the local Guardian last week from S TAJ He clearly thinks the meeting centre? will be used as a mosque & that any parking problems can be resolved. How? If as he says the followers of the Morden mosque are merely a cult & it shouldn't be regarded as a mosque, then how on earth did it get permission. After all it holds 10,000 worshipers on a 5 acre site. I am sure its followers would not be happy with his comments.This is all a bit like schools if you want to attend then live near enough. To say that is is not practical to travel to Morden 5 times a day is a nonsense. I have seen Muslim worshipers pray in Waitrose car Park,on a local cricket pitch, & in a local park. There is no hate or jealousy about objecting to this application, just common sense.
mosques do not pay council tax , if this goes ahead all the residents should demand a reduction in their council tax bills the council will be out of pocket by very large sums of money.
So you'll be consuming fewer council-provided services because there's a mosque nearby???
*scratches head*
Why don't mosques, and I assume other religious buildings, pay council tax?
I am not sure if this is still the case, but Malden Road was (just a few years ago) recorded in the Guinness Book of Records as having the highest daily traffic flow than any other road in the whole of England. Tried to check out the present state of affiars but the new Guinness Book of Records is not published until October (so W.H. Smiths tell me). Surely this says it all. Personally (as I do care in the community) I would LOVE to see it become a place where our old age pensioners could go for a chat, meal, cup of tea (from a proper china teapot) to outweigh all the lonliness I see most days.
As a Local Hindu, what worries me is the the local hostility towards the centre. Personally I prefer not to have it here...Why; because when all the "white van drives" in the casbar come out with the racist taunts they will be directed at any "brown" face walking past and as a Hindu I do not need this daily for something that I am opposed to. So here you have one person selling up and moving on the basis of this after a pleasant few years living here. Thank you and good bye Worcester Park! - Looks like I will slowly be pushed to the shores to escape the slow but firm take over of this country in its move towards becoming a Muslim State.
Dear Anonymous above, I'd like to clarify that not everyone from the caz bar is racist, and as much as you are saying don't tar everyone with the same brush I recommend that you don't do exactly that. I frequent the caz bar regularly and am not racist so perhaps you can reword your un-substantiated claim and credit some caz bar regulars as having a few brain cells?
Dear anon (not brave enough to name yourself) as a local catholic who drinks in the "casbar" (mispelt as in your post) i find it racist and offensive that you label me as a "white van drives" (as quoted in your post)thank you for moving out of wp. racism works both ways, remember that
Parking wouldn’t be a problem for visitors to this mosque, if the community sports field across the road was simply confiscated, then concreted over and presented as the mosque's private car park.
No doubt there would be uproar from the overwhelming majority, but we needn’t take any notice of the opinions of bigots, thinly disguising their bigotry as a protest against losing the community’s sports field.
Problem solved! (And to the satisfaction of everyone whose opinion counts).
I would just like to say that when using the term "white van driver" and "casbar" I am not specifically referring to all white van drivers and all casbar drinkers, not at all, But just trying to make a point that I am afraid/concerned that the few minorities in the area whom are.. lets say vocal in expression and naive in the understanding that not all "brown" people are of the same faith and thus should not be put in the same pot. (And yes that does extend to people of the same faith but less extreme) So if we do (and I hope not) have some racial tension, I do think that the more naive should consider that we are not all the same religion or express the same views even if we all have the same colour skin.
I don't see ant problem with the Old Post office becomming a drop in community/voluntary centre, which does not incure much if any traffic. Worcester Park could do with improved volutary servicies organisation.
As for the old Marks and Spencers, that should be replaced by a cycle park/ Hire. So as to encourage more cyclists and train communters.
As to the Casbar, it does seem to be frequented by load chavs and thickos, and can understand concerns over possible abuse.
There is a MASSIVE mosque in Morden.
Muslims know how to use public transport, right?
I'm just saying...
It would be nice to have an old fashioned family run bakery (not a chain one like Greggs), a cafe like Boho in Canterbury which is the epitome of retro with cupcakes and mismatched vintage china and strawberries and cream.. or a haberdasher or a pottery shop or... SOMETHING!. I don't see why we have to have such crap shops everywhere just because we live in a little town in the suburbs. It seems worcester park consists mainly of hairdressers and charity shops. Epsom and Ewell are only a couple of miles up the road and they are INFINITELY nicer!
Tiny villages in the middle of nowhere manage to have some beautiful little independent shops which all help to support the local community. I think we could all learn a thing or two from them. We should take our inspiration from places like Rye. It would probably help bring more money into the area too if we invested some time, care and money towards regenerating it. Maybe I'm naive and idealistic, but if the place looked nicer and wasn't so rundown we wouldn't have such a vandalism problem because the kids would take more pride in where they live and have a little more respect for it. Especially if there was something in it for them - like maybe a cinema that was cheap and showed random films that aren't necessarily the ones playing in the odeons at the moment. I'm not keen on the idea of a mosque, but the building should be used for something, and soon.
I would just like to ask "what have Muslims ever done for us"?
nothing only for themselves!
Lets slow this down it is NOT a Muslim Bashing exercise, it is a discussion on if we should or should not have a Muslim drop in center which may or may not become a Mosque in the future. (Note I am not a Muslim or even a fan of the religion) but I and am sure you are not a bigot, so keep to the discussion on the center or not and give your reasons why or why not.
Take a walk around Ilford!!!!
You will get a vision of how wp will loook in ten years time.
To those pc bleeding hearts amongst you who support this center
serves you right you will get what you deserve
The gradual Islamisation of the west,in twenty years time 13 yr olds stoned to death for being raped! Wake up and see what is going on around you!!!
Not far away in morden 1300 muslims are planning to gather to protest at the burning of a book by just one man in ANOTHER COUNTRY!!!!, yet Muslims feel free to gather and burn our flag and scream for our blood, and what do we do? We quote religiouse tolerence and invite them to open as many meeting places as they want!!!!!
On what page of the Holy Qu'uaran exactly does it advocate stoning 13 year old girls to death for being raped? The answer is of course NOWHERE, you have been reading too much of that American financed anti-Muslim propaganda. A minority of people in all religions do stupid things, it wasn't long ago people were being burnt at the stake in this country as witches because they believed in herbal remedies. I assure you that 1300 people will NOT be gathering at the Morden mosque to burn the Union Jack and scream for the blood of English men and women. Do try to verify things you are told before you accept them as true otherwise you end up believing in all sorts of hate propaganda.
Relax Anonymous, I happened to drive past the mosque at Morden today (9/11) and I could smell no burning, no flags of any nation were being ignited in the courtyard, no crowd of 1300 people screaming for British blood, just a dozen or so people quietly entering or leaving the mosque during Ramadan. Certain people want to see Christians and Muslims at each other's throats, even Sunni and Shiite Muslims at each other's throats, it's divide and rule so that America and her acolites (that's us) can maintain a military presence in the Middle East and rob the local people of their birthright - oil!
on a more positive note...
Anyone know what this property is going to be used for?
I certainly hope it isn't going to simply become increasingly derelict like the old M&S
An islamic community centre or mosque !
Anon, though some resolutely dispute it for undisclosed reasons, the indisputable answer is 'mosque'. The evidence for which is the two appeal advertisements - both of which disappeared after they had been discovered and quoted on this blog.
I suspect it's the first time Worcester Park has played host to a local community group who have actively and rather desperately tried to avoid the local community - it seems the Lord moves in mysterious ways.
So be it - both local community and local council have this development on radar. Watch this space or (to quote the source of the most recent appeal) try contacting Dr Sultan Syed on 07715995067 or sultan.m.syed@gmail.com if you prefer to lodge an ignored enquiry.
WP - Any chance of you uploading the second elusive appeal for the mosque/masjid to this thread? Apparently this page no longer exists: http://www.andalus.org/content/massive-opportunity-to-gain-reward-inshallah
Anyone know what the latest news is regading the development?
Reading the comments, some seem in favour of this, whilst others disagree, citing 'radicalism' and 'they're no tolerant of us' as objections.
Frankly, stupid objections.
The mere ability to say Muslims are radicals is a huge sterotype. Many, if not, most Muslims are peaceful and loving- Islam actually means 'submission' I believe, to Allah.
Moreover, Wasn't it the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of Protestant Christians, who said that the Shariah Law should be put into place and is unavoidable? Now, I'm pretty sure if in an Islamic country, the same was said towards Christians, at least people would've talked about it- Many schools in Pakistan are still under the names left by the British Empire like St. Mary's etc. and they are tought by Nuns- showing Religious tolerance. But nooo, because some British have to be rude to Muslims, saying that The AofC's claim was horrendous
Tell me one thing- would you feel this way if it was, say, a Buddhist place of worship?
The guy, religious faith is completely and utterly irrelevant here. Like many others, (some due to their political dogma), you have overlooked the real issues, which lie behind a deflective smokescreen of claims that ‘it’s just because they’re Muslims’.
This response is just a cop out, not dissimilar to the ironic Ali G. retort, “Is it because I is black?” (Always spoken after incessantly provoking an interviewee and finally receiving the desired, short-tempered response).
The controversy actually stems from the severely botched attempts, by this group, to hide away and deny both they and their plans for a local mosque exist... even though everyone in KT4 and far beyond can clearly read their ‘jettisoned’ on-line appeals. The same controversy would exist regardless of the ‘official’ faith of this decidedly ‘unofficial’ group.
So to answer your question: YES. If it were a Buddhist group (ditto that for Christian, Hindu, Judaist, Eastern Orthodox etc etc), then undoubtedly we would feel exactly the same way!
If local Buddhists claimed on-line to be a local community group, but off-line, were desperately trying to avoid detection by that local community, evading engagement with the local council, and even claimed they did not exist, we’d have exactly the same concerns!
The central questions are and will remain: “What is going on and why is this community group so anxious to hide itself from the community?” What are residents of Worcester Park supposed to make of ANY mysterious, alleged ‘local community’ group, so desperate to avoid the local community and bizarrely claiming non-existence?
The Guy, let me ask you a question: If you were to approach any other local community group (faith based, or otherwise) would you honestly expect their answer would be “We don’t exist!”?
One further aspect of interest (and amusement) is the nature of the ‘Yes Campaign’: Despite a complete absence of any information about this group, beyond the disowning of their own web pages, there are some firmly (and blindly) lending their encouragement … even though, collectively, they know absolute zero about what they’re actually in favour of!
If you read through the statements of the ‘pro mosque posse’, bizarrely you will find support from someone who refuses to believe it is a plan for a local mosque! We’ve also had fiercely favourable comments from a self-proclaimed intellectual, who later disclosed their complete ignorance about this mosque, those behind it and their reasons for hiding their intentions …
Then there is someone whose motivation appears to be on the basis that they are passionately opposed to the State of Israel. And another, who derides parental irresponsibility within the indigenous community, but also informs us they have never provided for their own child, apparently having found the time to create life, but never the time to take responsibility and earn a living!…
And lastly, ‘welcome in’ says the genius who, bitterly, anonymously criticises on-line: ‘on-line anonymous criticism’! All in all, an unconvincing, motley crew of armchair activists, who I doubt few local Muslims (or anyone else) would seize the opportunity to associate with. [You just need ‘Jeffers’ to join in, and you’ll have the full set of KT4 loony tunes!]
And so, there it is: a secretive community group who avoid the community, supported by a loose alliance of passive activists, who know nothing beyond their own illusory bull$hit. Hardly the inspiring kind of ingredients that would combine to build bridges, is it?
Back on planet earth… undoubtedly most Muslims are just as suspicious as anybody else of the intentions of people who make repeated appeals for money, for claimed community projects … and each time, they suddenly disappear, along with their appeals, without a trace!
Taken as a whole, it’s hardly surprising that a refurbishment costed at £325,000, with an “urgent” completion deadline of November 2009, has by June 2011, progressed only as far as a pot of paint!
there are many people meeting at the bank cambers every friday from 9.00pm !! and at weekends.
I think it's spreading as I've also seen several large groups of people meeting in the two buildings at the top of the High St on Sunday mornings. Causes no end of traffic chaos and I think someone should investigate as it seems pretty darn suspicious to me.......
I've noticed that as well, apparently they are another religious sect called Christians and claim that as they have been meeting there for hundreds of years they don't need planning permission. I don't know if that claim is true or not, perhaps someone could investigate it.
Anon 21 June.and why shouldn't they meet here,we are a christian country aren't we.
Anon 21/6 22:51 - Given that I think it's something like 10%-15% of people go to church "at least once a month" you'd be heard pushed to use "Christian country" anymore.
Of course, it's also true that the decline in church attendance has been markedly less in recent years due to the increase in ethnic minorities of a Pentecostal background. Maybe we should be encouraging more immigrants to ensure we retain our culture.....
What evidence do you have for it being a Christian country? To quote The 2007 British Social Attitudes Survey, 'which covers England, Wales and Scotland, but not Northern Ireland, indicated that 20.87% were part of the Church of England, 10.25% non-denominational Christian, 9.01% Roman Catholic, 2.81% Presbyterian/Church of Scotland, 1.88% Methodist, 0.88% Baptist, other Protestant 1.29, URC/Congregational 0.32%, 0.08% Free Presbyterian, Brethren 0.05% and 0.37% other Christian. Among other religions, 3.30% were Muslim, 1.37% Hindu, 0.43% Jewish, 0.37% Sikh and others 0.35%. A large proportion had no religion at 45.67%. 0.50% did not answer or N/A.[98]'
This would indicate that though Christians are a large group they are not the largest and they are fractured, so is the UK a Christian country?
That isn't the reason they should be allowed to meet though, it is the same reason that all of the other groups listed here should be allowed to meet and that is we allow freedom of expression in this country.
And so if a Muslim group want to meet in WP they should be allowed to, perhaps as they communicate with the same God as Christians and Jews, but have their turn on a different day they could use one of the three Christian buildings in WP.
"We are a christian country aren't we?" Well, if we were, we'd love the Muslims as well and we'd let them meet and build a mosque. No mate, don't think we are (a particularly Christian country). We just wear the badge without living it.
As the previous posting stated we are a Christian country with laws founded on our beliefs. No Muslim country would allow us the tolerance and freedom to worship as we allow Muslims in Great Britain which has in some cases been to the detriment of the community and see a change in demographics within the population. I am not a racist but sometimes feel like a stranger in my own country. We are fast losing the identity other countries strive and succeed to maintain.
Could you build a Christian church in a Muslim country and practice your own beliefs and in some cases laws?
Anon Thurs 23/6 15:47 - the largest Muslim country in the world has religious freedom for all enshrined in it's constitution whilst the Copts in Turkey have lived side-by-side the Muslim majority for years.
Thursday Anonymous - There are Christian churches in Egypt and Iran to name but two. In Iran Jews, Christians and the Islamic majority have always lived peacefully side-by-side, something U.S. Hawks will soon put a stop to if they have their way.
This country is still predominately Christian even though hardly anyone goes to church. The reason for this is that organised Christian religion fails to connect with the people, if the C of E was a commercial organisation the Archbish of Canterbury would have been sacked a long time ago. You can still be a Christian and not go to church.
Islamic people, like other Third World people, were brought here, or allowed to come here, not because of any advantages of 'diversity' or brotherhood. They were brought here to exploit them as cheap labour (just as they are exploited in the Third World) to maximise profits for...err..global capitalists. Sorry for sounding like an old time commie.
I agree with Wednesday Anonymous that multiracism has not been in the interests of indiginous Brits or the immigrants as it undermines social cohesion. One is still allowed to believe things like that in a democracy though Rick will probably call us Closet Goose-steppers for saying it out loud.
If people are allowed to come to this country and work hard (as most do) in the NHS, civil service and general commerce and pay their taxes then it would be unkind to deny them places to practice their religion ie Mosques (so long as it doesn't obstruct the WP traffic even further or doesn't involve human sacrifice). It would probably be discrete not to make them so big that they dominate the locality us up at Morden.
Anons 22/6 1:48:00 PM and 23/6 3:47:00 PM - There are practising Christians in many Muslim countries, such as; Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Oman, Lebanon, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia… In a number of these countries, the Christian population is a greater percentage than the Muslim population in the UK. There are churches in many, if not all, of these countries. The spiritual leader of Orthodox Christianity, vaguely similar to the pope, is in Istanbul.
The “no Muslim country will allow freedom of religion” is a myth, (with a couple of notable exceptions in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan).
Now, do the countries that allow freedom of religion bend over backwards to accommodate Christians? Probably not, but that’s a slightly different issue.
We have all been repeatedly instructed that there is nothing happening at the Green Lane mosque, nobody ever visits the Green Lane mosque, there is no such entity as the Green Lane mosque and there never was any plan for a Green Lane mosque.
We must therefore embrace these statements as fact and never see it, hear of it, speak of it or write of it.
Yet clearly some amongst us continue to reject direct instructions from higher authorities.
For a solution, we must look towards more disciplined societies, such as those in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain and Iran.
We must see the errors of the offenders’ ways and call for our governmental representatives to restrain their inappropriate, egalitarian thoughts and behaviours.
The Dutchman - sorry to be pedantic, but the Copts are Egyptian, not Turkish. Otherwise I agree with you.
It's finally official. A Sutton Council notice attached to the outside of Bank Chambers on Green Lane, clearly states than an application has been received for a change of use to - Place of worship. Over two years of speculation comes to an end!!
Personally, I welcome a derelict building being brought back to use. I hope it will benefit those members of the community who wish to use it.
Plans now submitted for the mosque !
http://213.122.180.105/FASTWEB/images.asp
Just goes to show you can't take anything that anybody says at face value!!! LBS now have on their website a planning application for, yes you guessed it, a change of use from commercial to "a place of worship," namely a mosque.
Did anyone else see the notice in the Sutton Guardian last Thursday regarding planning permission for the mosque?
Rumour has it that a revised application for turning the Bank Chambers into a mosque has been submitted. Does anyone know if this is true? I cannot believe that they would be allowed to do that after being turned down before.
Plans have now been submitted to planing for the mosque.
Disgraceful - better not see a mosque in Worcester Park. Doesn't belong.
who cares? worcester park needs to gentrify and modernise fast - it has one of the worst, most depressing high streets i've ever seen. and i live here, so i can say that. this is the issue - not what would surely be the world's smallest mosque, if it were to ever happen
A new application has been filed by owners with Sutton council to turn the Old bank chambers into a place of worship (i.e mosque). Application was filed back in June. If this goes ahead not only will this add to the congection in and around Green Lane, but ir will also be awful for the residents living around the site.
why are my posts not showing!
It is very important people know what is happening re the Mosque
A planning notice has been put up outside 2/4 Green Lane applying to have the building changed to a place of worship [mosque] for up to 140 people. It plans to be open from 04.30 to 23.30. So all you infadels who do not believe there ever was a plan for a mosque go take a look for your self or ask the planning department.
I think it would be correct to say that the authoritative religion of the country would be that of her majesty the Queen. Am I wrong?
I don't go to church, but I certainly see every church in Worcester Park and surrounding areas occupied on a Sunday.
One should not question people of a faith of which they themselves do not adhere to - just because that faith does not conform to the same practice of their own faith.
I am not religious myself, and I do respect the cultural differences of the world. But what with the ongoing devastation and conflict happening right now, do you not think that it is a good idea for the muslim community to practice their religion at the mosque in Morden, of which is a 10/15 minute drive from Worcester Park or an alternative train journey to it's confined train station. May I add, It is a stunning building!
I for one have no objections to a building being used by one of the major religions of our planet. I am shocked by the little England, nimby attitudes expressed here. WP high street is depressing and needs more people to visit. Hopefully More ethnic shops may even appear, amongst the current landscpe of charity shops, fast food shops and a few bars and restaurants, and of course Waitrose/Sainsbury's. More mosques, churches, synagogues and temples please!
well said my friend, we dont need any more mosques in this country let alone worchester park, im sick to death of it
A mosque open 4am to 11pm in the busiest bottleneck in town, with no facilities to park except that already fully utilised by local traders' customers...
And the response: "Who cares?" ... 'Mad' by name, 'mad' by nature.
You presumably interpret this as "gentrify and modernise fast" in an Islamic fundamentalist sense?
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