Tuesday, 30 June 2009

In Tolerance

"The British National Party...is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration."


BNP Constitution (Section 1, Article 2b)


If you are one of the many readers who contribute comments to articles on this blog, you will be aware that all comments are moderated and have to be approved before they are published. Virtually all of your contributions make it onto the blog. There are, mercifully, very few that I have to reject.

On the rare occasion that I do have to reject a comment, it is usually on the grounds that it is libellous, completely irrelevant or because I decide that the people of Worcester Park wouldn't really be that interested in learning how to enlarge their male organs.

Thankfully I have never had to reject any comments on the blog for being offensive, malicious, homophobic or racist. I like to think that says a lot about the tolerance of our local community.

This Thursday sees the British National Party (BNP) field a candidate in the Nonsuch ward by-election. You may have seen them out campaigning in Central Road over the weekend, handing out leaflets which talk of the "bloodless genocide of the native British people"and the "johnny-come-latelies [who] arrive uninvited in our country" and "enjoy the hard-won fruits of our common history".

So have you noticed how many shops in Worcester Park are owned and run by non-British nationals?

I suspect, like myself until I began writing this article, that it has never occurred to you - because it simply doesn't matter.

Yet I think it is worth remembering how many (as the BNP would call them) 'johnny-come-latelies' there are working hard, building local businesses and helping keep our community alive.

BNP literature, of course, chooses not to mention such people as it rushes to tar all immigrants with the same nationalistic brush.

Nor do they mention the indigenous work-shy underclass who shun work in favour of a life on benefits, leaving job vacancies that can only be filled by overseas labour.

The BNP maintain they are not racist and that it is not a matter of colour. I simply invite you to read once again the excerpt from the BNP constitution at the top of this article and will leave it to you to decide.

When the polling station opens on Thursday, I have every faith that the people of Worcester Park and North Cheam will send a resounding message to the BNP candidate, the only one of the four candidates who does not live in the local area.

Am I sure that all reasonably-minded residents of Worcester Park will share my view that the most important thing in a society is that people contribute to the best of their ability, that they respect each other and their local area, that they obey laws and be good citizens and the only people we have to fear are those who choose not to do so - irrespective of their age, class, race or creed.

As an interesting footnote, all of the other candidates have to some degree a 'non-British' background. But again that only matters insofar as it provides an interesting counterpoint to the BNP's argument.

They are, all three, very capable candidates all of whom live in the immediate local area, all of whom contribute in the professional lives and their spare time to enrich the community we live in. Whether you agree with their particular policies or not, they are the kind of 'good citizens' that any community needs.

So whether you ally yourself to Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat I simply hope that you turn out to vote on Thursday and will vote to preserve the harmonious and homogeneous local community that we all enjoy.

42 COMMENTS (Add Yours Now!):

Anonymous said...

well firstly,i would like to point out that all candidates have a democratic right to stand and think its wholeheatedly wrong,with your [trying to be middleclas attitude] being shown on here to be frank.i live in worcester park,and have heawrd and read your views about the hamptons,and i really find your twofaceness something to be desired.who do you think you are privvying up to all these shop owners.[i bet its mainly eateries and takeaways your crawling too].i mean how many and i am not being racist; foreign buissness men have set up short term in worcester park then buggered off.how many leases and flats are owned by foreign buissness men.alright lets say how many indians or pakistannis have you seen respending their wealth in their local community.answer not a lot thats why britain is in trouble.when the last influx of immigrants come to england in the 50s and 60s,and by and large most were irish my parents were,they spent within that community.thats why there was plenty of pubs food shops,furniture stores small bakersand so on.not now unfortunatly the people in buissness now want fast bucks big loans and off they go these people are not providing service to enhance peoplrs lives.otherwise why do corner shops charge double or more on everything they sell,when they know full well their customers are normally the poorest,penshioners or people without transport.and they extrmely rarely and i mean extremely,would employ a english person from that community,and if they did there seems to be a great mistrust.and beleive me i am no racist or paticular supporter of any parlimentry party.this is from the heart.st phillip alleyer

Worcester Park said...

Hi St Philips Alleyer. Firstly, I should point out that The Hamptons is a housing development and not a race of people. Perhaps you would like read through the blog postings on The Hamptons and will find that I have only ever criticised the development itself and the impact it has on the local traffic and services.

I'm afraid to say I simply don't recognise all the ethnic stereotypes that you bring up, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

BenjyP said...

Thanks Mr Blogger,

As normally one to enjoy a little baiting of other residents within WP on your blog using my free speech (a right thankfully allowed within Great Britain and a reason for attracting many individuals to our shores)and a right which must be extended to all however poorly constructed, ignorant or distasteful their views may be, as in line with that by St Philip Alleyer above, I feel obliged to write a fairly sensible comment for once.

I'd like to ask that everyone who may be considering voting for the BNP, seriously researchs and truly understands the party that they will be voting for and makes sure that no other party meets their need as a political party.

On the slightly irreverant side though,

I hope many people out there got to go to the Cheam Common Infants Summer Fete over the weekend and enjoy the fantastic curry prepared by Munal while the BNP were preaching their hate on the high street.

Anonymous said...

I admire that fact that you have allowed St Phillip his opportunity to speak. However, I am very personally distressed by his views. Anyone who needs to repeat on several occassions that they 'are not a racist' is protesting too much. Why do you need to make that staement unless you are well aware that your views will be interpreted as such by all sensible, balanced readers of this blog?

I truly believe that WP would be a sadder and duller place without the great mix of communties. The thought of wp as a white/britsh only zone fills me with horror.

I do have faith however, that the majority of Worcester Park residents share my opinion and hopefully the election result will support this.

Anonymous said...

What total garbage StPhilip writes. It is so condescending to think that Asian people only shop in Asian shops. All businesses pay taxes, rent, rates, VAT etc. so what does it matter what the ethnic ownership if the shop is?

And it's not just 'eateries and takeawys' that non-Brits own and run. How patronising is that man?!

And perhaps the reason why they don't employ an 'English person' is that so many of their businesses are family run - in fact if we were as good at sticking together as families perhaps we wouldn't have the crime and social chaos we find ourselves with.

Reading St Philip's ignorant comments makes me want to go out and vote a thousand times for the other three candidates and reminds me exactly why I find the BNP's views so disgusting.

Oh, and congratulations on raising this topic on the blog. I love the blog for the humorous bits but I think it's good that you tackle heavy topics like this too.

Keep up the good work!

Andrew said...

I saw the BNP campaigning in WP. I only noticed as some chap was handing me a leaflet, as soon as I realised, I refused it.
Worcester Park high street is usually such a friendly place and I love walking up there to do some shopping. But seeing the BNP there, was like treading in dog shit, distasteful. I only wish I had had the balls to tell them they weren't wanted in my town.

jason said...

I've always found that the best way to deal with the BNP is to point and laugh.

Their leaflet is so bad it's almost comedic.

"Johnnie come latelies" read as "black people."

Come on Peter North, say what you mean.

Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

It is discomforting to learn here that the BNP were canvassing on our friendly high street. I grew up in Dagenham where, unfortunately, the NF were active. I "escaped" from that area to study Law at university and I also spent time studying the history of neo-fascist and extreme right-wing parties in Europe because I found it interesting how parties (like the BNP) feed on ignorance and fear. I often wonder how many (women especially) would be tempted to vote for these extremists if they knew about the chauvinistic attitudes of the far right! I'm hopeful that voters in the Nonsuch ward by-election will give the BNP a wide berth and vote for any of the other parties. As for St Phillip Alleyer's comments, I too come from Irish parentage and maybe he is unaware of the ignorant racism that earlier Irish immigrants had to deal with when they arrived in this country. I have to agree with the others who have replied - it's good to be reminded that there are lots of decent, tolerant people living in our area!

Jacey said...

"Racism", that ugly word rears its head again. Trouble is its such a strange word. Surely EVERYONE has a bit inside them whether we dislike the Germans, French, any "foreigner" for any reason.
If I'm asked I say I'm not but I guess there's a bit inside somewhere. Trouble is that it appears only white English/British are ever pulled up for apparent racism.
I worked in London in the multi-nation Civil Service for many years and racism was rife in every nationality/race/religion (not just racism though, we had sexism, ageism all rife). There were black Africans falling out with each other, Asians disliking/looking down on others supposedly of "lower class" and on it went. Even the minority ethnic meetings didn't solve anything, if at all they isolated those who didn't want to go. Should the Irish/Scottish etc go? Shouldn't everyone be treated equally whether they had kids, were disabled etc etc. Yes I know, not a real world.

As for the BNP I didn't see them in WP. Someone described the UKIP as BNP in suits - similar views in the manifesto but less extreme, how does anyone feel about that? Yes I know they're extremist but I'd not have a problem taking any leaflet, after all you can always bin it.
And as for takeaways "run" by non-Englsh, God bless the lot of you, whatever nationality you are. In WP we're lucky to have great food places.

Anonymous said...

agree that it is a sad day that we have been "selected" as a potential area for consideration by the BNP.

Should we not all look around at each other and show a bit more community spirit thus giving these marginalist parties no chance of winning?

name function not working - posted by axlrocky

it maybe a bit of utopian thinking from a usually staunch conservative but surely if we all just smile a bit more and bring our families up to respect each other and their elders we wouldnt be "considered" for selection by the BNP.

Somebody has carefully analyzed that WP is a "BNP" possible winning area - shouldnt we all think about where we live and what we should do to improve that situation?

SC said...

One of the great things about this country is the mix of views we all hold, and the histories we all bring with us. I class myself as British - I was born in the UK and brought up here. But my family hails from Ireland and Italy, a generation or so ago. So I am not sure if I'd be classed as British of a Johnny Come Lately!

WP has some really nice shops and eateries and I think that the area benefits from these. Not because the people all hail from wherever, but because the shops and eateries provide a good service. People giving the local community what it wants and needs is what's important. Not whether the person selling me a pizza is from Poland or Chennai. I seriously don't care about that. At all.

Needless to say, I know who I'll be voting for and it won't be the BNP.

I do though think that they should have the right to stand a candidate. I just hope that people see sense on the day!

Anonymous said...

well 1 i think i raised some fair arguments.2 i am no racist whatsoever. 3 of course i know of the disgusting treatment the irish got from all over britain,and i do beleive morrisey sang a song about it,starting with signs in most pub windows or boarding houses...no blacks,no dogs,and definitley no irish.and i dont remember any paticular party jumping up and shouting a case for these people.just as i am definitly no mouth piece for the bnp[if you read my comment you would have read that] and who says im a male?]is someone sterotyping me? no its easy to quickly jump to conclusions,and forgive me if im wrong;but if someone decides after giving it there own induvidual concerns to vote one way or the other that is down to them.because thats what a lot of people are doing.maybe just maybe you dont have problems or worrys genuine concearns in your neighbourhood..lets say you lived in southall or bradford or oldham and white people went round saying dont vote for this or that party just because he was pakistani bangladeshi or jamacian.i personllay believe there would be uproar.and if you believe for one moment that these creeds and cultrues arent materialising then you have obviously have a blinkered opinion..now im not saying [right get out and vote now for tthe bnp]what i was saying was,if you had done the same comments for lets say a muslim cleric from morden,you would probably had this whole blog closed down..st phillip alleyer

Anonymous said...

ok anonymous if all english people would only employ there familys and cousins aunts and uncles and they happen to all be white.how long till the bleeding hearts brigade,and the europ[ean courts of human rights would jump in.not to mention all the payouts that would undoubtley surface.from all the racial angles that would throw up.....grow up and smell the coffee

Kathie said...

There was an excellent programme on radio 4 last year about asian small businesses e.g. corner shops. Many had been set up by highly educated and qualified people who, although they had professional qualifications, faced genuine racial discrimination. They set small businesses because no one would employ them, or would employ them only in roles grossly below their level of qualification. (When I lived in Walthamstow 25+ years ago, my local newsagent was a nuclear physist by profession. He had been kicked out of Uganda in Ida Amin's expullsion and had no choice but to leave the country. He struggled to get paid employment in the UK)

Secondly, many small businesses, irrespective of who is running them, use family mmembers because margins are very tight and family members can usually be trusted not to have their fingers in the till or pilfer from the cash and carry.

Also, the asian small businesses led the way in opening shops in the evenings at weekends. I would not want to go back to the days when everything shut at 5 pm except on Wednesdays when shops shut at lunchtime.

Anonymous said...

Hear hear WP blog! I hope that no-one votes for the BNP and they lose their deposit. Freedom of speech is one thing, and everyone is entitled to their views. However, racism is not acceptable and I hope this party is soon banned.

Anonymous said...

what a load of old bunkham kathie... so what that these people were so grossly over qualified,and they have to open small buissnesses.i dont suppose there are any over qualified british people having to do lower jobs and positions,because just maybe foreighn nationals have taken them.no my main gripe and this has happened for years is;paying well over the odds for produce grocerys deli almost everything from theseso called community shops.it doesnt matter if you shp at 9am 1pm 5pm or 10pm the price is the same.and i know shops who buy supermarket goods in bulk,especially ones on 2 4 1 offers then bung them in yhe shop and treble the price.thats why when you go in supermarkets most offers have been snapped up and you cant get any.... now you might say well dont shop there ,but what if you have absoloutly no choice i.e no car no bus fare disabled or so on .these shops then become the viper in the boosom.now in my oppinion these people arent real people of the community.as in going to school using local shops garages,and spending some of the local gained wealth,where they earned it and before you bang on about freechoice britain,have a little think where towns and villages gat and keep their wealth...cranleigh in surrey springs to mind...st phillip alleyer

Bruno said...

st phillip alleyer has to be some kind of joke. This isn't a Borat style wind-up is it?

Ian Morris said...

I would argue that the the vast majority of our ethnic community can spell, and have a much better grasp of simple grammer than stphillip alleyer. Might I suggest that before stphillip alleyer posts any further comments, that he/she purchases a dictionary first. No Dyslexic excuses either.

bear said...

I'm a member of the human race...does that make me a racist? Who cares about race, creed or colour as long as whoever they are are ot expecting other people to pay their benefit money!

Anonymous said...

well st phillip alleyer i think has got some points. im not racist.im not really botherd,as long as their working.these are quotes heard and read daily...but is it true.,i think not.lets say for instance you have two daughters 18 and 20,one comes home pregnant by by a non english speaking albanian,the other with an african speaking sierra leonne temporary assylum speaker.i really really do not believe the people of nonsuch the avenue ,roads of it and ruskin drive and surrounding aeras would allow it..,i beleive and correct me if im wrong that it would be a well documented fact that these situations should not be allowed to occur,and the same parrallels could be drawn in certain families if the case was an irishman,scotchmen german or french..its still racism...st phillip alleyer

BenjyP said...

Ian Morris,

Thank you! The only thing that winds me up more than the poorly composed, badly written and mostly irrelevant comments in relation to the topics are from the idiots that don't know the difference between their, there, they're, to, too, were, where 2 etc.

Oh just in case anyone is wondering, "I am not racist" in any comment probably means you are, or you are aware that you lack the ability to create a coherent comment or argument. Please stop reading this site and go back to where you came from, Browning Avenue at best.

rob_browning said...

BenjyP is a pedant and a snob.

BenjyP said...

Perhaps a pedant, but not a snob, not entirely sure were you got that idea from. Or what you're views are on the topic being discussed. Perhaps the comment is beacuse you live over their on Browining Ave. Is that to close to the bone

Anonymous said...

Why is st phillip alleyer self praising his own comments from a third person perspective? At least i think thats what he's doing only the terrible grammar in the posts make it barely legible!! And the views expressed are like something from the dark ages! I find it sad that there is a growning number of people living round here that share these views and opinions. It makes no sense at all. Ive never seen any trouble caused by ethnic minorities, or europeans round here, just chavving english people. And im sure a much higher percentage of the 'english' people round here are not working aswell, if thats all you worry about.

By the way, is it you that is in the situation of your daughters becoming pregnant by albanian speaking albanians, and african speaking africans? Cos i smell a sitcom coming up!

Kathie said...

We have an excellent choice of shops in Worcester Park and we are within easy walking/cycling distance of many large supermarkets.

So what is it that you really want, those of you who voted BNP? If the BNP were to gain control of the council/government, what would you expect them to do?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I too had to laugh at dear old st phillip alleyer's last post. He starts by saying "well st phillip alleyer i think has got some points", as if he were trying to pretend to be another person, but then clearly forgets half-way through, signing-off as "st phillip alleyer" anyway.

Not that pretending to be someone else would've been particularly successful, as I think anyone who's bothered to read this post + comments for more than 5 minutes will have instantly spotted his unique posting style, which could be described as "I have no regard for grammar whatsoever." ;)

It is good to see so many people noting the positive contribution of ethnic minorities to the community. Let us all hope the BNP is sent a clear message from WP residents to pack up and stop spreading their poison, as their views are not tolerated within the community, and rightfully so.

Anonymous said...

Yes, St Phillip Alleyer's post was very funny to read. I didn't realise that African people spoke a language called "African"; maybe the reason his posts are do difficult to understand is that he's actually speaking a language called "European".....

Anonymous said...

It really is so embarrassing to watch to all you politically correct people falling over each other to be nice to immigrants and nasty to the BNP. Your problem is that the immigrants are far wiser than you are and like the BNP know that multiculturalism doesn't work except in the minds of certain naive British people.Before you reply, remember that you don't know what race I am. Also remember that people are not defined by their race but by their culture and the degree to which they have become civilised human beings.

BenjyP said...

Hi Anon,

I am willing to learn from all and any, I am pleased that the immigrants are wiser than me as hopefully they will help me better myself. So far I have learnt several great lessons from the BNP such as it possible to lower council taxes, income tax and many other forms of central revenue and yet increase spending in all areas as well as paying for all immigrants to return to their country of origin. As a result I have handed in my notice for my well paid city job and am now looking forward to working for £10k a year and still being able to meet all of my outgoings inculding mortgage, utility bills and food for my whole family (no council tax though). What a fantastic economic lesson I have learnt.

I don't care what race you are but please can you define your interpretation of civilised? In it's self surely the term "civilised" is bound by subjective and conceptual ideas of what are socially advanced ethics, morality and humanity.

One last question why is there any need to define anyone?

Anonymous said...

By the word 'civilised' I mean treating others with kindness and respect (including strangers). Not civilised in the sense that someone can tell a Van Gogh from a Renoir.

We need to define ourselves because people of all cultures value their identity more than anything else (you are obviously an exception).
Without your culture you are nothing, you are invisible, you belong to nobody.

Immigration is evil because it forces people to leave the homes and families they love and travel to an alien culture to be exploited as a source of cheap labour working for (or less than) the pitiful National Minimum Wage.

The charge of 'racism' is a smoke screen used to cover up criticism of the exploitation of Third World people as cheap labour. If you oppose them being brought here to be exploited you are a 'racist'.

The BNP do not hold the answer to our problems but they are the only party with the courage to say loudly that multiculturalism does not work. For this alone they will take their place in history and will be honoured for generations to come.

You say you enjoy diversity, diversity is division, it robs a community of its social cohesion. What makes you think black and brown people want to be part of your diverse community? Have you asked them?

You probably feel very cosmopolitan because you patronise Indian and Chinese restaurants but the people who work in those places work long hours in appalling conditions and temperatures often for less than the pitiful National Minimum Wage to supply you with your Rogan Ghosh. You are benefitting from their exploitation by the restaurant owner who drives away in his shiny new Mercedes at the end of the night.

Today we have the technology and the investment to give everybody the opportunity of earning a decent wage, living in a decent home with access to good education and medical facilities in their country of and origin and birth. We have the technology to put men on the Moon and the money to fight endless wars in the Middle East but not for this.

The reason it doesn't happen is because it is not in the interests of certain people for it to happen, people who profit from the exploitation of cheap Third World labour and use it to keep the wages of European people to a minimum.

Nothing will change until the politically correct well-wishers wake up to how they have been tricked by the money power. Britain for the British - and Nigeria for the Nigerians!

Andrew - a white Worcester Parkian said...

Im sorry, but the way you refer to 'immigration' as some kind of separate entity, that is 'evil', makes no sense. If people emigrate here, then it is a choice that they have made for themselves. If they want to work in a restaurant long hours for a low wage, then again, that is their choice. We live in a free country, and I don't see how people making their own choices about what they do, can, in any way, be called exploitation. There are many white British people working in restaurants under the same conditions...are they too being exploited?

As soon as the means of travel was developed centuries ago people have moved around the world. Its our right as citizens of this planet. I honestly don't see how you can say multiculturalism doesn't work when we, the 'British' that you refer to, are made of dozens of different cultures and nationalities dating back hundreds of years. The number of original Britons alive today, i.e the descendants of the hunter-gatherers that were here long before this country was invaded umpteen times by the Romans, Vikings, Normans and countless others, is minuscule. Britain will always be for the British, but being British doesn't exclude people of different cultures or races.

I think you're so wrong in what you say about belonging to one culture or another. You are somebody if you enter into a society, whatever culture you, or that society, is made up of. People are fundamentally just that; people, human beings. We are literally all exactly the same organism, biologically identical. How does being born on the other side of the globe have any bearing whatsoever on whether you are able to interact with people from this side of the globe?

Racism isn't a smokescreen. Its a barrier. A barrier which you imbeciles want to keep up because you're so terrified of being bettered and succeeded by people who look or sound different to you. Its so unbelievably shallow that it makes my skin crawl. My baby daughter goes to a playgroup, and she plays so happily with white babies, black babies, oriental babies, asian babies, it really doesn't matter. Don't you see that the reason multiculturalism doesn't work harmoniously is PURELY because of adults like yourself. If all the bigots were wiped from the face of the earth, whatever nationality they are, then the world would work. Perfectly. Without war, without bias, without insane, stupid, shallow, weak, petty, insecure, blind racism.

Andrew said...

....And the BNP will be honoured by future generations to come in the same what that the Nazi party has been similarly honoured by the current generations, worldwide.

BenjyP said...

Hi Anon,

Thanks for taking the time out from leafleting and door knocking to respond to my post.

Please can you clarify a couple of items for me regarding my post and your responses.

1) When did I say that I enjoyed diversity? It may have been implied but not stated

2)When did I refer to black or brown people? Race seems very important to you as a defining feature of culture yet the 2 are by no means the same.

3)I may eat in any range of restaurants from Indian, Korean, Greek to Cafes, Road side truck stops,KFC and Michelin starred restaurants, yet staff are underpaid and overworked in all of these establishments. That does not mean that I am ignorant of exploitation, this is a problem for nearly all cultures, races and communities. After all are we not animals and the opportunity to improve ones own conditions at the expense of anothers is something that we are all guilty of in one way or another or from a lesser to a greater extent. Does the BNP want to dispose of Capitalism as the structure of society? A fairly interesting point for their manifesto as it currently isn't on there.

Finally you state "Without your culture you are nothing, you are invisible, you belong to nobody", if I go through life living to your definition of civilised why should I care about this, as long as I am happy and feel that I avoid making others peoples life worse through my actions or a lack of them?

Look forward to your response

Anonymous said...

Clearly I cannot reply to 'Andrew' as he reverts to verbal abuse calling me an imbecile, bigot, stupid and wishes to wipe me from the face of the Earth. This latter clearly shows Hitlerite and Stalinist tendencies. I on the other hand have no wish to wipe anyone from the face of the Earth not even the Israelis who use Palestinian children for target practice as we have seen on TV. Just remember that immigrants do NOT have freedom and choices that you have unless you refer to the choice between starving in the Third World or being exploited as cheap labour here.

BenjyP thanks me for taking time out from leafleting to reply inferring that I am a member of the BNP. I have already written that the BNP do not have the answer to our problems, I vote for them for the same reason most people vote for them: to give a kick up the arse to our pro-immigration Government who allowed another million in last year.

The BNP has no economic policy therefore we can presume that they are merely another contender to run capitalism for the capitalists. They demonise all people of the Islamic culture as terrorists and have adopted a pro-Israeli stance, something that fools nobody, certainly not the Jews who remember that their Leader, Nick Griffin, was a heel-clicking antisemite only a couple of years ago.

The BNP is currently in turmoil because it is required by some Race Equality Act to admit Black members. What makes them think any Black people would want to join the BNP? Any that did would be joining to sabotage it and could be rejected for not believing in the policy of the Party. Any who did join for sincere reasons should be welcomed as allies but the BNP is blinkered by race.

Fifty years ago when I was one of Oswald Mosley's Blackshirts we had Black people in the party who worked with us for a voluntary repatriation programme that was as much in their interests as ours. They formed their own Associate Movement acknowledging Mosley as Leader and were also led by a Nigerian Fighter Pilot and an Indian Accountant. Things like that made us stand head and shoulders above the BNP, the NF and the goose-steppers.

Mosley's policy was that industry and commerce should be owned not by private individuals as with capitalism, not by the State as with orthodox socialism but by the people working in that business amongst whom any profits would be shared.

Mosley's policy was that as science increased the productive power of industry, Government should ensure that the increased wealth was passed on to the people in terms of a shorter working week with higher salaries, longer holidays and earlier retirement. Instead the capitalists were left to cream off the extra wealth that technology has created and are even increasing retirement age from 60 to 65, then 67 and possibly even 70.

No, I am emphatically not a member of the BNP. I am far, far worst than that.

Sorry if I falsly attributed belief in diversity to BenjyP. You say that race seems important to me when I have already stated that people are not defined by their race but by their culture.

Hullo, is that the time? I'd better finish off polishing my jackboots.

Andrew said...

I would hardly call what i said verbal abuse. However you wish to not-answer my points is irrelevant. Youre a fascist, and fascism, above all other political systems, fails miserably. You can harp on about being a blackshirt - i.e a thug - all you want. And just because Mosely may have had a good idea or two about economic policy, does not make him a decent man. Economics is a made up system, that if it all came crashing down would not matter a jot in the vast, expansive reality of the universe. What about peoples right to freedom and their right to be welcomed by peoples other than their own?

You may say that the choice SOME of these people have, (its misleading to say all, as a massive proportion of emigration is not forced upon people by negative situations such as war/famine etc), is between starving in the third world, or working for a pittance in an English establishment, but at least it is a choice. Not ideal, but nevertheless a choice. Things will improve, but we have to be realistic. It will take a long time for places such as Nigeria, as you mentioned, to become a perfectly civilised, fully developed country. And i am in no way saying our political system works well. But i am saying that people should damn well have the right to not be persecuted for being from another country. Simple as that.

And i feel that the fact you didnt argue any of my previous points shows you know that i am right. You should be ashamed! Being racist under the guise of 'its in their best interests' is a load of bull. Whatever helps you feel better about yourself i suppose. And supporting Mosely's ideas on immigration is absurd, when he waxes extremely lyrical about the 'Empire'. You do know how an empire is formed right? By the people of one country, not only emigrating to another country, but forcefully taking over and imposing its own rule at the cost of all native inhabitants.

Just a few direct quotes from the BUF manifesto, to enlighten anyone not familiar with Oswald Mosely and his ideas...

'The will of the people is greater than the right of the minority'

'The unfit will be offered the alternatives of segregation sufficient to prevent the production of unfit children, or voluntary sterilisation'

'We do not permit foreigners to be M.P.'s or officials, or afforded the full rights of British citizenship, and Jews will not be afforded these privileges. Anyone in the service of the State under Fascism must be entirely British'

'It should not be necessary to secure British racial purity by act of law. It should only be necessary by education and propaganda to teach the British what racial mixtures are bad. If a Briton understands that some action is bad for his race he will not do it. With the British this is a matter for the teacher rather than the legislator, but if legislation was ever necessary to preserve the race, Fascism would not hesitate to introduce it.'


Does anyone remember something called the Holocaust?? Or are you one of those strange fellows who can somehow still deny that it happened? And furthermore, has anyone read a book entitled 'Brave New World'?

Yours, and Mosely's ideas, along with any hard-line fascist organisation, are totally wrong, immoral and damaging to humanity in the whole. This is the 21st century, and i feel you need to join it, along with the other 6 Billion of us.

Anonymous said...

If Mosley had come to power there would have been no Holocaust because there would have been no war and it is only under the cover of war that such horrors occur.

The holocaust I am referring to is of course the holocaust in which 60-million Gentiles and Jews died, not just the 6-million you refer to.

Our policy was 'Peace with Honour, Empire Intact and British People safe'.

Yes we were thugs because we had the courage and manliness to defend our meetings from physical attack by our political enemies who wanted to silence us. We never started fights but we always finished them.

You claim to quote from a British Union 'manifesto' but there never was a manifesto because British Union never contested a General Election. So what document you refer to I don't know.

You query the suggestion that 'the will of the people is greater than that of the minority'. But that is why majorities win elections rather than minorites.

You query the suggestion that people with serious hereditry illnesses should be dissuaded from having children to prevent further suffering. Right or wrong, it seems to be a perfectly legitimate point of view to hold.

You query the statement that 'it should not be necessary to secure racial purity by act of law'. Most people would be against laws to enforce racial purity, are you suggesting that it should be secured by act of law?

During the 1930s Mosley was in dispute with some Jews who were advocating war with Germany and were represented out of all proportion to their numbers in both Communism and International Finance. This was misrepresented as anti-semitism just as until recently all criticism of Israel's treatment of Palestinians was denounced as anti-semitism by Israeli supporters.

Mosley's Director of Publications, John Beckett, was Jewish.

The editor of Mosley's weekly newspaper, The Blackshirt, Bill Leaper, was Jewish.

Harold Soref who later became Tory MP for Ormskirk was a Blackshirt Standard Bearer at the Olympia Rally according to his Obituary in the Jewish Chronicle.

And whilst held in prison without charge or trial during the war, Mosley was taught German by Albert Lewynska, a Polish Jew who was a member of the Ealing branch.

Although talk about the 'Empire' seems strange today, do remember that three generations ago every British child, whether a toff at Eton or ragamuffin from some East End School, believed passionately in the Empire. As they say 'The Past is a foreign country, they did things differently there'. Do try to remember this.

Under Mosley's system all exploitation of 'natives' in the Empire would have ceased, they would have been accorded fair wages, free education and health care. In particular his newspaper campaigned vigorously against the 'sweating' of Carribean people on the sugar plantations and branches of the British Union were opened in the West Indies.

In the end Mosley lost, the power of Mob and Money directed against us proved overwhelming, and the opinions of people like yourself prevailed and are responsible for the present state of the world. That includes global warming (and even more frightening the fact that the ratio of oxygen in the air we breathe has dropped from 39% to 19%), the widespread use of hard drugs with disasterous results, the rise of knife and gun crime, mass unemployement, bankers and MPs caught with their snouts in the till. You can take all the credit. Enjoy.

None of these things would have been allowed to happen by a Government of British Union I can assure you.

Let me end on something we can surely both agree on, a tribute to the first two official casualties of the Second World War.

RAF aircrew George Brocking of Clapham and Ken Day of Southend both died on the second day of war Monday September 4th 1939 (70 years ago this coming Friday) when their Blenheim bomber was shot down whilst attacking the German fleet at the mouth of the Elbe estuary.

By the way, both were card-carrying members of Mosley's British Union.

Andrew said...

The meaning of manifesto is 'a public declaration of principles and intentions'. The quotes i used come directly from OswaldMosley.com.

Secondly, the actual BUF quotation is...'The will of the people is greater than the RIGHT of the minority'...i.e you can do what the hell you like to the minority as they dont matter, and have no rights at all.

Thirdly, gentic disease will not be eradicated simply by stopping people with hereditary problems from having children, which in itself is totally wrong. But furthermore the actual context of the quote was definately not refering to people with severe disability....

''At present, birth control is known and practised by the relatively well off. It is largely unknown and less practised by the very poor. The result is exactly the reverse of national interest. The patriotism which Fascism will awaken, coupled with a greater economic security, will lead to larger families among those who at present practice restriction... Those who rightly oppose present tendencies of birth control can alone secure the result they desire in the national awakening of Fascism. The unfit will be offered the alternatives of segregation sufficient to prevent the production of unfit children, or voluntary sterilisation.

As you can see, the 'unfit' refer to the social underclasses, the 'very poor'. In other words, the BUF would want the poor and people on a low social standing to stop having children, and the well off upper classes to have larger families. Thus creating an elite british race, some would akin to Aryan.

Fourthly, it should be quite obvious what point i was making about the 'legislation of british purity' and it was the absurdity and just absolute bleakness of a system that would never allow peoples of a different culture from cohabiting and procreating. The point is that, 'if legislation was ever necessary to preserve the race, Fascism would not hesitate to introduce it'.

'The past is a foreign country, they did things differently there' I couldn't agree more...your views are archaic.

I seriously question whether oxygen levels have changed at all over the last few hundred years, never mind halved! Do you not think that we as humans would have noticed this decline, as it would inevitably have a serious, if not absolutely fatal, impact on all of our health. Global warming is a serious issue, i dont see how Mosley would have combated this with fascism. Its a by product of our technological advancement, which has been a runaway train since the early 19th century, no legislation would be able to halt it. The task now is how to manage it, and use the technology we have to introduce green fuels, such as hydrogen which is about to break through in a massive way, and nuclear fusion, which in the very near future will produce all the worlds power with no waste output. I don't see how stifling the stampede of technological advancement would benefit the world in the long run.

Crime and drug use has been around for centuries, and will be around for centuries to come. Drug use and robbery at gun and knife point was even more prevalent in the 18th, 17th and 16th centuries and earlier, than it is even now. If you did research you would see that we as a people have the best social and living conditions that have existed in our society from the year dot. Its certainly no worse since emigration began.

The diversity and variety that people bring from oversees only enriches this country, and helps it thrive. If you stopped all emigration, and threw out everyone in this country who was not British, we would be ruined. Why would a country trade with ours, which has closed its borders, and banished and mistreated their citizens?

I'm sure neither of us will change our way of thinking, so we must agree to disagree. I do very much agree we should honour all those who fought for our freedom in war, members of the BUF included. But don't forget about the countless foreign lives lost, including soldiers from the west indies, india and gurkhas etc. They all count aswell.

Anonymous said...

As you say, we will never agree and with the end of this message I draw a veil over my participation. I suspect you have got to the stage where you disagree with everything I say simply because I am saying it.

A good example is your refusal to believe that oxygen levels in the atmosphere have dropped dramatically, as mentioned in my last message, with the inference that it is some fascist scare tactic.

If you do a Google search for "oxygen levels" Tatchell you will come across an article in the Guardian by Peter Tatchell (no friend of fascism I think you'll agree) which makes quite clear that there is sound scientific evidence indicating a major drop in oxygen levels in the air we breathe. Other sites dealing with the subject suggest that since the beginning of the industrial revolution (about 250 years ago) oxygen levels have fallen from thirty-something percent to the current 20ish% level and the depletion trend is accelerating. In large conurbations, such as London and Los Angeles, the figure is even lower, down to 14%. At least 8% is needed to support human life but the incidence of cancer begins to increase long before that low level is achieved.

If these low levels were reached globally it would be up to public spirited individuals to forgo their share of oxygen by holding their breath indefinitely. Perhaps you would like to volunteer?

Anonymous said...

is anyone else getting bored with all this?

BenjyP said...

I am and I am partly to blame, so sorry unless this results in a royal rumble at the ampitheatre at the Hamptons.

Former liberal, but no more said...

"Don't you see that the reason multiculturalism doesn't work harmoniously is PURELY because of adults like yourself. If all the bigots were wiped from the face of the earth, whatever nationality they are, then the world would work. Perfectly."

Well, thanks for the education. We'd better all vote BNP then, before all us indigenous Britons (i.e those in posession of non-approved, disharmonious, non-multicultural coloured skin) end up carted off into concentration camps. I wonder who would pick up the bill for this perfect multiculturalism then?

Anonymous said...

You'll miss me when I'm gone though.

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